are the other grate apes self aware?

[patduckles]

i really know very little about biology so can someone explain whether, or not they are self aware?

 

[PuppetXeno]

I think that all creatures that scratch their itches are self-aware. To what extent they wonder about things or just accept things as they are is a different question.

 

[ebbixx]

I think that all creatures that scratch their itches are self-aware. To what extent they wonder about things or just accept things as they are is a different question.

Agreed. For a long time people (especially philosophers) tended to minimize or explain away many similarities between humans and other animals. The overall trend in the last century has been to undercut the notions many people have had to assume that humans are unique. Uncertainty on these issues, though, stems in large part from our inability to directly understand what is going on with another species when they show behaviors that suggest self-awareness, communication and other features that were once assumed to be uniquely human traits and abilities.

Such behaviors are dynamic, in the sense that they take place over time, and involve mutiple individuals doing things that are responsive to the seemingly spontaneous actions of others. While the physiology that makes such actions possible may be encoded genetically, there is no genetic or strictly organic cause for my saying, "I think I'll go downstairs now and make myself a snack."

Likewise, if you want a "biological" source of "self awareness" you'd need to define "self awareness" much more explicitly than is usually the case in ordinary speech. Most philosphical disputes about this seem to stem from sloppy definitions, muddy logic and/or preconceived notions.

 

[patduckles]

ok thanks. but i would like to suggest that it is a natural reaction to an itch to scratch it because is could be an insect that is carrying a pathogen, in the same way that it is natural for you to remove your hand from a hot surface.

 

[ebbixx]

ok thanks. but i would like to suggest that it is a natural reaction to an itch to scratch it because is could be an insect that is carrying a pathogen, in the same way that it is natural for you to remove your hand from a hot surface.

Suggest away. The question remains, how do you prove that it's a stimulus reaction and nothing more? And how do you examine the mental state of another great ape without having a means to communicate clearly?

You've begun to argue the case without first defining the terms. What is and what is not "self awareness" to begin with?

 

[Pulsar]

The mirror test is often used as a measure of self-awareness. In short, an animal is marked with a bit of paint (e.g. on its face) and put in front of a mirror. If the animal recognizes the mirror image as itself, it figures out that the paint is on its own body, and tries to rub it off. The great apes pass this test, as do bottlenose dolphins, Orcas, elephants, and European Magpies.

Some criticize the mirror test though. For instance, this author argues that social behaviour and emotions like status, pride, self esteem, territoriality, self punishment, self love, supremacy, and submission are evidence of self-awareness, which is found among many more animals.

 

[patduckles]

You've begun to argue the case without first defining the terms. What is and what is not "self awareness" to begin with?

it wasn't an argument it was actually more of a question.

 

[Aught3]

Plusar beat me to it!
I think if you take any animal with an advanced enough brain, you could make a pretty good case for self awareness. Of course it's hard to tell for sure because you can't actually ask them.

 

[JacobEvans]

Of course it's hard to tell for sure because you can't actually ask them.

I don't think asking them is necessary. I believe that the experiments like the mirror test are enough evidence to be certain.

Saying that we can't know whether or not a chimp is self aware just because we can't ask them, is like saying that we can't know if a star has planets because we've never been to another interstellar planet, despite having the ability to detect planets through the wobble effect of stars with planets.

 

[Aught3]

It comes back to the question of 'what does it mean to be self aware'. If you asked an animal if it was self aware and it said 'yes' I'd say that about wraps it up.

experiments like the mirror test are enough evidence to be certain.

I don't envy you walking into one of these conferences then. There are all sorts of debates about what is sufficient evidence to class an animal as self-aware.

 

[JacobEvans]

Oh I'm aware of the heated debates present on the subject. I'm also willing to defend my conclusions, and willing to get my ass handed to me if I'm wrong.

 

[doloafing]

I consider self awareness to be the ability to recognise one's own existence. In other words, comprehension, rather than mere reaction (colloquially speaking. I'm not convinced that the two are mutually exclusive).

This has always been kind of a rough point for me. It is this that kept me agnostic (whatever that is) for so long.

I don't think the mirror test is conclusive. It's a good way to say that, as far as it is possible to know, this creature is self aware, but if an animal fails that does not mean that it is not self aware. It simply lacks the capacity to recognise its own reflection.

Animal behaviour goes far beyond simply scratching an itch as a reaction. There's a lot of learned behaviour, and it certainly seems that there's comprehension behind their actions.

My cat, for example, knows not to poop on the carpet. She has been taught this. She knows that the kitty litter is the correct place. She can recognise when she needs to poop, and seek it out, making her way around obstacles, manipulating humans to let her into different rooms. If she cannot find it because it's been emptied and not refilled, she'll wait by the front door to be let outside. She knows that if she does this, someone will soon come along to let her out.

It's reasonable to assume that my cat is self aware. However, whenever I've seen her encounter her own reflection, she's reacted with hostility.

Just my two cents. I'm no expert, but the mirror test, in my opinion, cannot be relied upon for negative results.