Aliens: Do They Exist And Have They Come To Earth?

[nudger1964]

the point is you may have an unimaginary vast number of candidates, but you have no data whatsoever to calculate the odds of a genesis of life, which for all you know may be orders of magnitude less likely than the number of candidate enviroments.
so far as we know, all life on earth has come from a single genesis...no matter they mammals or extremophiles.
it is ammusing you accuse me of making an argument from ignorance...way to go

 

[The Felonius Pope]

Just for a moment, lets assume their is indeed life elsewhere in the cosmos. What type of technology would these beings have? Could they escape from their own solar system? If these beings did reach the social and technological stage we are currently at, would they look like us?

 

[Anachronous Rex]

It is hard to say anything with a sample size of one, but:

Just for a moment, lets assume their is indeed life elsewhere in the cosmos. What type of technology would these beings have?

Judging from Earth history... effectively none. That is to say: there has been life on Earth for Billions of years and only in the last 2 million or so have we seen anything like technology, and we have no way of knowing if this trend will last.

Could they escape from their own solar system?

I imagine we could if we put our minds to it, so if they are as intelligent as ourselves, probably. I'm not sure if they could go very far though.

If these beings did reach the social and technological stage we are currently at, would they look like us?

I can't imagine why they would, unless bipedalism is somehow essential for the development of more advanced intelligence. Even then they'd be as likely to look like meerkats, theropods, or Cthulhu as us.

 

[Prolescum]

the point is you may have an unimaginary vast number of candidates, but you have no data whatsoever to calculate the odds of a genesis of life, which for all you know may be orders of magnitude less likely than the number of candidate enviroments.

You're right, I don't have the data to calculate the exact odds of an extra-terrestrial genesis. We do, on the other hand, have a basis for supposing life can exist beyond Earth. This is the basic conjecture:

1) Earth contains an abundance of life
2) All life discovered thus far is mindbogglingly varied, and can survive some of the most extreme conditions imaginable
3) The requirements for life are few (hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen etc)
4) There are around 300 billion stars in the Milky Way, one of an estimated 500 billion galaxies
5) There are already hundreds of other planets discovered orbiting other stars in our galaxy
6) Life doesn't care about anthropocentrism

so far as we know, all life on earth has come from a single genesis...no matter they mammals or extremophiles.

Yes, and I notice that you miss the forest for the trees. I'm not explaining it again.

it is ammusing you accuse me of making an argument from ignorance...way to go

I see no reason to retract my views on your personal incredulity.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

6) Life doesn't care about anthropocentrism

B-I-N-G-O

I just want to make it clear that this does not mean that we should not have at least some respect for 'humanity'. Without it, we don't 'carry' on. It just simply means that humans are not the center of anything. Well perhaps, some are in the center because of their ego's but that is a slightly different context and/or story.

Or perhaps a slightly better way to describe it would be taking the "Hippocratic" oath, but for humanity. But now we are moving from hard based science to ethics. Always a fun little topic.....


Paraphrase:

"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath


Let the fun begin.........

Pardon the slight derailment.


Or perhaps this is a more accurate representation of the oath:

"The time of being admitted as a member of the medical profession:

I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity; the health of my patient will be my Number One consideration;
I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession; my colleagues will be my brothers;
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics, social standing, or sexual orientation to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life from the time of conception, even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honour.[3][4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician%27s_Oath

Carry on and have a excellent day.

Or perhaps this one is better suited for this website:

"In 2007, the UK government's chief scientific advisor, Sir David King, laid out a 'universal code of ethics' for researchers across the globe.[5] The UK government has already adopted them.

The seven principles of the code, intended to guide scientist's actions, are:

Act with skill and care in all scientific work. Maintain up to date skills and assist their development in others.

Take steps to prevent corrupt practices and professional misconduct. Declare conflicts of interest.

Be alert to the ways in which research derives from and affects the work of other people, and respect the rights and reputations of others.

Ensure that your work is lawful and justified.

Minimise and justify any adverse effect your work may have on people, animals and the natural environment.

Seek to discuss the issues that science raises for society. Listen to the aspirations and concerns of others.

Do not knowingly mislead, or allow others to be misled, about scientific matters. Present and review scientific evidence, theory or interpretation honestly and accurately."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath_for_Scientists


Yes, I realize that the quoted material was a lot of copy pasta but I felt it was well worth it.

 

[WarK]

1) Earth contains an abundance of life
2) All life discovered thus far is mindbogglingly varied, and can survive some of the most extreme conditions imaginable

The fact that life on Earth can survive in so many different environments doesn't mean that it can start in all those environments. I'd venture a guess that most of environments on Earth wouldn't be suitable for abiogenesis.

And yes, once it starts it seems to be unstoppable

 

[nudger1964]

[
You're right, I don't have the data to calculate the exact odds of an extra-terrestrial genesis. We do, on the other hand, have a basis for supposing life can exist beyond Earth. This is the basic conjecture:

1) Earth contains an abundance of life
2) All life discovered thus far is mindbogglingly varied, and can survive some of the most extreme conditions imaginable
3) The requirements for life are few (hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen etc)
4) There are around 300 billion stars in the Milky Way, one of an estimated 500 billion galaxies
5) There are already hundreds of other planets discovered orbiting other stars in our galaxy
6) Life doesn't care about anthropocentrism

[.

i dont doubt for one moment that life can exist beyond earth....thats not remotely what we are arguing about.
You are the one making a claim...that life beyond earth is probable!
I am, as a skeptic, asking for good reason to come to that conclusion.
I can assure you that nothing you have said so far has come as news to me...i know all that (except probably dispute the number of stars you claim are in our galaxy)
As Wark has said, the fact that once life starts it is positively viral does not address the issue.
i suspect the fact that you mentioned anthropocentrism makes me think you misunderstand why i am a skeptic for the claim you make.

the only position a skeptic can take is...i dont know. That is my position.

so help me out here...im not asking for data to calculate the EXACT odds for ET genesis... just give me any odds, any rough calculations that science has to offer, any studies addressing the issue...just be sure to give sources for the data please.

i would also add, that while we have found hundreds of planets and planetary systems, we still know very little about planetary formation. we have no real idea how that relates to conditions for life, or how rare those conditions might be...or even what those conditions need to be. what we do find is that our solar system, so far, is not typical. It might be that is dosnt need to be....but again....we just dont know

 

[tuxbox]

just give me any odds, any rough calculations that science has to offer, any studies addressing the issue...just be sure to give sources for the data please.

I believe the Drake Equation gives a rough calculation.

 

[Prolescum]

i dont doubt for one moment that life can exist beyond earth....thats not remotely what we are arguing about.

Then you need to re-read my posts.


All of them.

Carefully.


Here's what you say:

i just cant for the life of me think why life elsewhere in the universe is any more likely than there being no life elsewhere in the universe.

the point is you may have an unimaginary vast number of candidates, but you have no data whatsoever to calculate the odds of a genesis of life, which for all you know may be orders of magnitude less likely than the number of candidate enviroments.

Here's what I've said:

That there is life on Earth is evidence that life can exist elsewhere, given some basic requirements.

The probabilities rely on the unimaginably vast number of candidates, not just the existence of life on Earth.

We do [...] have a basis for supposing life can exist beyond Earth.

I will not take the blame for your inability follow a conversation. That said, I'll make it even more rudimentary. The conjecture (look this word up - English probably isn't your first language):

1. life already exists here
2. The requirements for life to begin are few
3. there is enough space, elements, and time for it to have occurred more than once.
4. There is so much space, elements and time for it to have occurred more than once, the likelihood that it has is greater.

If I were to make it any simpler, I'd need to re-learn baby-babble.

You are the one making a claim...that life beyond earth is probable!

Conjecture =/= claim.

I am, as a skeptic, asking for good reason to come to that conclusion.

And I gave you my views on it. This thread is called Aliens: Do They Exist And Have They Come To Earth?, not Show Me Evidence That Life Exists Elsewhere Otherwise It's Just As Likely That It Doesn't.

I can assure you that nothing you have said so far has come as news to me...i know all that (except probably dispute the number of stars you claim are in our galaxy)

I didn't claim a specific amount, just a general ball-park figure for the sake of argument.

As Wark has said, the fact that once life starts it is positively viral does not address the issue.
i suspect the fact that you mentioned anthropocentrism makes me think you misunderstand why i am a skeptic for the claim you make.

That was humour. Being a self-proclaimed sceptic, I'm not surprised it slipped past you. Wark, of course, makes a valid point.

the only position a skeptic can take is...i have no idea. That is my position.

You're arguing as if I've suggested there is life elsewhere... Also, your position hasn't been "I have no idea", it is extra-terrestrial life is just as likely as no extra-terrestrial life as evidenced by:

i just cant for the life of me think why life elsewhere in the universe is any more likely than there being no life elsewhere in the universe.

Ponder that for a moment.

so help me out here...im not asking for data to calculate the EXACT odds for ET genesis... just give me any odds, any rough calculations that science has to offer, any studies addressing the issue...just be sure to give sources for the data please.

I've already addressed this in a previous post.

I believe the Drake Equation gives a rough calculation.

I thought about that, but the Drake equation refers to the likelihood of civilisations. I'm not sure it's wise to widen the discussion (between Nudger and myself) at this point.

 

[Visaki]

I believe the Drake Equation gives a rough calculation.

Taken that the Drake Equation requires at least four total guesses I'd say it gives a very, very rough calculation.

I suppose the answer to the original question is; define "alien".

If you mean "any non-Earth originated life" I'd answer "yes, probably", and "I have no idea, but probably no". If you mean "little green men (or alike intelligent life)" I'd answer "no idea but it's a big universe", and "no, we don't have any evidence that they have". I suppose not having a firm black/white oppinion on the matter makes me a bad debater about it.

 

[nudger1964]

I thought about that, but the Drake equation refers to the likelihood of civilisations. I'm not sure it's wise to widen the discussion (between Nudger and myself) at this point.

i would like to carry on the conversation, but your tone suggestes i should drop it.
You may not believe me, but i do understand why you are saying what you are saying, but do not agree with your conclusion that you can claim it is "probable". You havnt managed to bring anything new to the table yet, so its just going around in circles.
and Tuxbox...you are not supposed to take the drake equation too seriously, it was just thought up on the spot as a talking point for a lecture...its not trying to do anything other than identify some of the variables that need to be considered. I am sure there are any number of variables we havnt even thought of

 

[Prolescum]

You're right, I've come across as a bit of a knoblet. Ignore me.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Do they exist? Possibly.

Have they come to Earth?

Well, you have two views that you can choose from.

From a short hair point of view, no, they haven't. There's no evidence of anything of that sort happening.

From a longer hair point of view, you might say that ancient assonauts have definitely visited the Earth. I mean, dude, assonauts built the pyramids and gave us their awesome stone placement technology. And assonauts made electric lamps that the egyptians used for lighting up the tombs at the pyramids... and afterwards dying alone and not using the lamps anywhere else. Logic.


Keep in mind, one of the views is more costly, and you might need to spend 10 more minutes in front of a mirror each day, with different.

 

[Frenger]

I had a great debate with someone who believed the Ancient Alien theory yesterday. I was able to make him look like an idiot even before he got to the pyramids, right on the off.

His opening gambit was "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"

I said egg.

He said "exactly, put there by aliens".

:lol:

 

[The Felonius Pope]

The premise of the show Ancient Aliens seems to be, "Abiogenesis is impossible, therefore for life was created by aliens." I can't say I see any logic in this.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Even more laughable are their sources... Like a guy who graduated in sports information and communication and wrote articles for a magazine.

 

[nudger1964]

found this discussion where Paul Davies sums up what i was trying to say far more eloquently than i managed.
I think he is spot on, and his work trying to find evidence of a seperate genesis of life on earth is something that should be given far more support.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Yes, the Universe will be teaming with life.

As for Aliens coming to Earth, I find it highly unlikely.

 

[Laurens]

I met someone who thought that magic mushrooms were an alien life form...

I told him that he should probably stop eating them then.

 

[37551]

The fact that life on Earth can survive in so many different environments doesn't mean that it can start in all those environments. I'd venture a guess that most of environments on Earth wouldn't be suitable for abiogenesis.

And yes, once it starts it seems to be unstoppable

Thank you for saying this. We know almost nothing about the odds of abiogenesis happening, all we know is that it happened on our planet as soon as our planet was suitable for life of Earth's particular variety. It might be a bit of a tangent, but that raises the issue of cause and effect. Did abiogenesis occur on earth because of the "perfect" conditions for life were reached, or would the requirements for life have been different if abiogenesis occurred under different conditions?

Given the grand scale of our cosmos and the fact that >light speed travel is hopeful thinking at best, I'd say the odds of aliens having visited earth at any point in time are astronomically low. Our current understanding of the human brain on the other hand, explains almost all alleged alien sightings. Brains are fascinating.