Acupuncture

[Homunclus]

This is a technique often recommended by hospitals and stuff, so I assumed there was something to it.

However after extensive online research (browsed through the wikipedia article) and many first person accounts (one person mentioned it to me) I came to the conclusion that the evidence that this is actually beneficial is lacking to say the least...apparently the one thing we know is that it is not harmful...

So I was wondering what you guys though of it...

 

[Otokogoroshi]

At best if offers the placebo effect. You think it'll work so you feel better.

At worst however it can cause infections from improperly cleaned needles.

Beyond the above mentioned placebo effect its worthless...



Also I faint when I get poked with needles so it would probably be a very bad idea for me :lol:

 

[Aught3]

Placebo. Here is a report on a recent acupuncture study. It shows that fake acupuncture works 'just as well' as real acupuncture. Oh, btw the lead author, Cherkin, seems to have some problems interpreting his own study correctly so you can ignore what he says about it.

 

[CupOfWater]

I think it works. Maybe not on everything, but on some things. I've heard that they poke the needles in places where there is some stuff under the skin. That sounds awfully stupid, but I don't know how to say it better.

If it didn't work, they'd probably wouldn't have continued using it when they first discovered it.

 

[Aught3]

^but you could say the same thing about chiropractic, homeopathy, and other alternative treatments/medicines. Just because some people keep using it doesn't mean that it actually works.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Doctors could learn from acupuncture and other "alternative" medicine providers... if you burn incense, play soft music, and pretend to care about people's problems, people will feel better no matter what you actually do to or for them.

 

[Aught3]

Yeah, but doctors actually have important stuff to do in a small amount of time - saving lives, healing the sick, work, work, work :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Yeah, but doctors actually have important stuff to do in a small amount of time - saving lives, healing the sick, work, work, work :lol:

Golf games, 2-hour lunches... :lol:

I'm talking about family medicine types, not ER doctors.

 

[Shapeshifter]

You have not given the option "It works, but only as a placebo effect".

In any case, I know quite a few people that have used all kinds of alternative medicine and most of them felt better afterward. I also know some who didn't gain anything. I think you hear more often of those people which had success than from those who didn't, because they don't walk around talking about not being cured by miracle doctors.

In any case, I agree that one thing western medicine doctors could learn from alternative medicine is the holistic view of body and mind. Some doctors are very focused on treating symptoms, especially when it comes to various body aches, disregarding connections between different aches, and disregarding psychosomatic reactions.

 

[Homunclus]

You have not given the option "It works, but only as a placebo effect".

Sure I have, it's the "It does not work" option

If you can convince someone that X will make them better then X will have a placebo effect, no matter what X is... I already now that, I'm interested in finding out if this actually works

 

[Homunclus]

Placebo. Here is a report on a recent acupuncture study. It shows that fake acupuncture works 'just as well' as real acupuncture. Oh, btw the lead author, Cherkin, seems to have some problems interpreting his own study correctly so you can ignore what he says about it.

I don't think this is very conclusive, I mean we don't know how it is supposed to work, so assuming it does, it is not unreasonable to assume that actual penetration of the skin is unnecessary

 

[Fordi]

Placebo. Here is a report on a recent acupuncture study. It shows that fake acupuncture works 'just as well' as real acupuncture. Oh, btw the lead author, Cherkin, seems to have some problems interpreting his own study correctly so you can ignore what he says about it.

All Cherkin had to do was go a step farther. His study included penetrating v. non-penetrating v. untreated, but he didn't include randomized (i.e., in-"expert") penetrating and randomized non-penetrating - which, if all non-control tests showed the same results, would be a conclusive indicator that any benefits are entirely placebo.

From the language of the article, it seems as though Cherkin started with the premise that AP works and drew his conclusions from that. Bad science.

 

[Fordi]

If you can convince someone that X will make them better then X will have a placebo effect, no matter what X is...

Or, as my fianceé's dad says, "If green M&M's work, take green M&M's"

 

[Fordi]

Doctors could learn from acupuncture and other "alternative" medicine providers... if you burn incense, play soft music, and pretend to care about people's problems, people will feel better no matter what you actually do to or for them.

This is true enough - but I think more aromatherpy and less incense - you can't keep that "clean and sterile" feeling with a smoker running off.

The soft music is important. A bit of "good" (as in, not music to slit your wrists to) atmospheric would do any office nicely.

As for pretending to care... I think you may need to find a new doctor.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

This is true enough - but I think more aromatherpy and less incense - you can't keep that "clean and sterile" feeling with a smoker running off.

The soft music is important. A bit of "good" (as in, not music to slit your wrists to) atmospheric would do any office nicely.

As for pretending to care... I think you may need to find a new doctor.

Well there's care and then there's CARE, you dig? My doctor is a cool chick and whatever, and she wants me to be careful, but she doesn't want to hear about my dog and cats. I'm talking about pretending to care about non-medical problems.

 

[Aught3]

I mean we don't know how it is supposed to work, so assuming it does, it is not unreasonable to assume that actual penetration of the skin is unnecessary

So acupuncture could work but the needles, penetration, and exact body locations don't matter? I mean you might as well poke yourself with a pencil.

Although I do agree that they forgot to include an acupuncture only and fake acupuncture only group; they did demonstrate that there was no difference between real and fake acupuncture.

 

[Homunclus]

So acupuncture could work but the needles, penetration, and exact body locations don't matter?

They changed that too? I guess I must have skipped that part...

 

[Aught3]

Well there have been other studies which have investigated acupuncture and found the location of the needles to be unimportant in the effectiveness of the treatment.

In the study I linked to they had two acupuncture groups. In one group they all got the acupuncture in the same body locations - a sort of generic acupuncture. In another group they had individualised acupuncture where an expect picked the acupuncture points. There was no difference between these two groups.

 

[Digitised]

Acupuncture is proof that allah is real.

 

[CupOfWater]

"acupuncture likely works by stimulating the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) to release chemicals called neurotransmitters and hormones. These chemicals dull pain, boost the immune system and regulate various body functions."

Howstuffworks.com
Maybe not the most reliable source, but it's a good explenation. The whole yin/yang-flow of energy-bullshit is of course not true, but that was what the chinese thought caused bad health.