Abortion.

[Mazzerkhan]

JB abortion is not a crime (it is not like rape, theft, murder) so it doesn't involve the destuction of all current laws or ethics. It is probably one the most distressing situations a woman can ever find her self in. And luckily most advanced societies recognise this. These societies have come to realise that certain situations require compassion and common sense. I will reiterate my stance that viabilty (about 23-24) weeks is the most sensible benchmark. As for your misogynistic comments can I just say that this gynocrat wanted to give you a clip round the ear.

 

[IBSpify]

So, you admit a child is a separate human being and now your argument is: she should be allowed to kill it if its more convenient for herself? So... if I find your death more convenient than dealing with you, I should be allowed to murder you?

Separate being yes. Human, i don't recall saying that.

But here i can play this game too, your argument is that the victim of a violent rape must be further punished by being psychologically tortured with a constant reminder of the horrific event growing inside of her body for the next nine months.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Separate being yes. Human, i don't recall saying that.

But here i can play this game too, your argument is that the victim of a violent rape must be further punished by being psychologically tortured with a constant reminder of the horrific event growing inside of her body for the next nine months.

There's no obvious concern for ACTUAL human life in the anti-abortion position, is there?

 

[JBeukema]

Separate being yes. Human, i don't recall saying that.

No, the child is not her body

Definitions of child
# a young person of either sex; "she writes books for children"; "they're just kids"; "`tiddler' is a British term for youngster"
# a human offspring (son or daughter) of any age; "they had three children"; "they were able to send their kids to college"

But here i can play this game too, your argument is that the victim of a violent rape must be further punished by being psychologically tortured with a constant reminder of the horrific event growing inside of her body for the next nine months.

Not at all. My argument is that X raping Y does not excuse Y killing Z

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I think I mentioned before that I want to be sterilized. I'm all for it!

I think JB missed my point by a million miles and kept running in the wrong direction. If someone were to take a first term child from my body it would instantly die, thus making it unable to be transplanted into one of the billions of other viable women on the planet.

The thing that probably offends me the most about the anti-abortion lot is the idea that just because circumstances worked against my best efforts I should then sacrifice my life for nine months, go through a painful birth (even c-section isn't a walk in the park) then be expected to give up the child with no repercussions?

To people like that clearly the unborn FETUS (not child, not baby etc) means more than a fully functioning adult with an actual life, emotions, feelings, sensations etc.

Am I for all forms of abortion? I think I've made it clear that I don't like giving anyone complete approval for everything. However sometimes late term or partial birth abortions are NEEDED. Medically so as well.

If the mothers life is at risk if she continues a pregnancy its logical to abort the child. I can think of countless situations when this would be required.

However if someone was dumb enough to decide after seven months that they suddenly don't want the kid they waited too long and will have to suffer it out.


A few cells stuck to the side of my uterus have no right to hijack my body and my life.

I wonder if he's against the morning after pill too?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

To people like that clearly the unborn FETUS (not child, not baby etc) means more than a fully functioning adult with an actual life, emotions, feelings, sensations etc.

They don't care much about the fetus either... you can tell because they aren't offering to pay 100% of the costs to prevent the abortion, and then paying to make the adoption process go through.

 

[JacobEvans]

Am I the only one here who kinda wishes JB had been aborted? kinda mean, but he's said some pretty fucked up/sexist stuff.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Am I the only one here who kinda wishes JB had been aborted? kinda mean, but he's said some pretty fucked up/sexist stuff.

I'm too nice to wish harm on anyone. He may piss me off but I wouldn't cause him harm or even wish it on him... though he clearly doesn't feel the same to me... you know... suggesting I should kill myself.


I try so hard to be a hard ass bitch but... I'm... TOO FUCKING NICE!!! T_T

 

[enterman]

Not at all. My argument is that X raping Y does not excuse Y killing Z

If X caused Z then X deserves to suffer. Why does Y need to suffer at all? With the logic you just presented your saying it's ok for men to rape women so that they can get a child. What kind of a sadistic bastard are you that you think women need to have one more hardship in their lives? How would you feel if you had to give up 9 months of your short life to pain and suffering just for the sake of morality? Not to mention the health risks just to the body carrying the result of said rape.

 

[JBeukema]

With the logic you just presented your saying it's ok for men to rape women so that they can get a child. .

I never said that; more strawmen enter the scene

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Am I the only one here who kinda wishes JB had been aborted? kinda mean, but he's said some pretty fucked up/sexist stuff.

You might be alone on this. You should be able to disagree with someone's views without wishing harm on them.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I still want to know why a collection of cells that look like this:

Should have the right to decide any factor in my life. At this point it doesn't even have a heartbeat. So it literally wouldn't exist without its mother. It can't be born and if something goes wrong its just dead. No saving it. No incubating it. Nothing.

The funny thing is when I searched for this image I got so much bullcrap it was really funny. Go to google and do a search for first trimester fetus add abortion in there if you want to get rid of all that supercilious scientific images and go right for the doctored photos.

If you have to lie to support your cause then there has to be something hugely wrong with your motherfucking cause.




PS to edit this in: It doesn't even have a brain yet.

 

[darthrender2010]

I still want to know why a collection of cells that look like this:

Should have the right to decide any factor in my life. At this point it doesn't even have a heartbeat. So it literally wouldn't exist without its mother. It can't be born and if something goes wrong its just dead. No saving it. No incubating it. Nothing.

The funny thing is when I searched for this image I got so much bullcrap it was really funny. Go to google and do a search for first trimester fetus add abortion in there if you want to get rid of all that supercilious scientific images and go right for the doctored photos.

If you have to lie to support your cause then there has to be something hugely wrong with your motherfucking cause.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that picture is of a three week old embryo, and in that case does have a heart beat... even if it doesn't yet it'll have one in less than a week so... I mean... this is only 5 weeks after your last period... so... unless you tested you wouldn't even think you were pregnant yet.

also, at this stage it has a primitive brain too. a week after this (4 weeks old - 29-35 days) it'll have a 5 vesicle brain. So neither of your statements exactly hold up...

And beyond this, it was an appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy.

 

[darthrender2010]

Here are my problems with abortion.

1) It is the cessation of a unique human life.

Unique in the sense that it has a separate body and functions from the mother at 4 weeks including a rudimentary brain, circulatory system, and heart beat as well as a variety of other primitive functions.

Human in the sense that it is a human by definition. Things don't "become" human, anymore than things "become" apes or become cats or dogs.

And yeah, it's alive...
It shows all the signs of life at 2 weeks old.

What I see is a lack of personhood definition. not of humanity.

2) Government money is going to provide unnecessary abortions to women when the money could be going to education on prevention or any other aspect.


It's the beginning of my finals week right now at university so I'm kinda tired sorry in advance if I didn't make any sense.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Here are my problems with abortion.

1) It is the cessation of a unique human life.

Unique in the sense that it has a separate body and functions from the mother at 4 weeks including a rudimentary brain, circulatory system, and heart beat as well as a variety of other primitive functions.

Human in the sense that it is a human by definition. Things don't "become" human, anymore than things "become" apes or become cats or dogs.

And yeah, it's alive...
It shows all the signs of life at 2 weeks old.

What I see is a lack of personhood definition. not of humanity.

2) Government money is going to provide unnecessary abortions to women when the money could be going to education on prevention or any other aspect.


It's the beginning of my finals week right now at university so I'm kinda tired sorry in advance if I didn't make any sense.

Of course its alive. The sperm was alive and the egg were alive. As much so as any cell in a persons body is alive. The fetus grows rapidly and develops and gains organs, nerves and all its vital systems. I don't think anyone here was arguing that its not alive and thus we shouldn't feel bad about killing it.

It would be nice if the government spent its money on prevention. Both in contraceptives and in education. I'm personally all for lowering the abortion rate through preventing the pregnancies in the first place! Ideally I would love it if abortions only ever happened in extreme cases to protect the mother or if the child isn't viable (IE the case where the child had no brain).

However we don't live in a perfect world. Rape happens, incest happens, accidents happen. A teenager who gets pregnant drastically reduces her chance of success. Her likelihood of graduating from high school goes down sharply and once they drop out of high school there is little chance they'll go into college. This means suffering not only for the mother but for the child she has. The less of an education the mother has the less of a chance to financially support her child.

Even if she gives up the child for adoption there are huge emotional ramifications of having carried that child and giving it up. We can't pretend people exist in an emotional vacuum and that they'll be no emotional scarring.

 

[JBeukema]

Go to google and do a search for first trimester fetus add abortion in there if you want to get rid of all that supercilious scientific images.

let's see what we find

11 weeks

 

[JBeukema]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that picture is of a three week old embryo, and in that case does have a heart beat... even if it doesn't yet it'll have one in less than a week so... I mean... this is only 5 weeks after your last period... so... unless you tested you wouldn't even think you were pregnant yet.

also, at this stage it has a primitive brain too. a week after this (4 weeks old - 29-35 days) it'll have a 5 vesicle brain. So neither of your statements exactly hold up...

And beyond this, it was an appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy.

-and she says 'If you have to lie to support your cause then there has to be something hugely wrong with your motherfucking cause.'

 

[JacobEvans]

Ok. I take it back. I don't really wish JB was aborted.

And in regards to being able to disagree with someone and not wish harm on them, I agree that in this case it was harsh to say that (it was more a joke than anything, damn you lack of irony smiley!), but I feel that for what he's said, especially regarding his apathy towards rape and women, I still wouldn't be upset if he were raped in the ass.

His 'life sucks so get over it' attitude towards rape pissed me off, especially since he's trying to be the advocate 'human' rights.

JB if you're so apathetic towards rape and women, why the fuck do you have any care for embryos? Or are you just against abortion because you want women to suffer for having sex?

 

[JacobEvans]

and JB, look at a picture of a removed tumor and tell me you don't get the same 'that's so fucked up' feeling. Won't prove anything other than the fact that anything that is made inside you body will look gory, especially when covered in blood.

Try not to appeal to emotion. Pathos is far weaker than logos. At least the other 'lifer' was polite from the start.

 

[darthrender2010]

However we don't live in a perfect world. Rape happens, incest happens, accidents happen. A teenager who gets pregnant drastically reduces her chance of success. Her likelihood of graduating from high school goes down sharply and once they drop out of high school there is little chance they'll go into college. This means suffering not only for the mother but for the child she has. The less of an education the mother has the less of a chance to financially support her child.

Yes, rape happens. But the pregnancy rate for rape is 1-5% (as apposed to 20-25% for regular copulation) which account for approximately 36,000 pregnancies in the U.S. Annually. (citationhttp://www.sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php) There were 1.21 million abortions in 2005 (sorry I couldn't find anything more recent) (citation http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html) So even if every pregnant rape victim wanted an abortion (which not all do) rape would only account for 3% all abortions in the U.S. Clearly there is something wrong.

Even if she gives up the child for adoption there are huge emotional ramifications of having carried that child and giving it up. We can't pretend people exist in an emotional vacuum and that they'll be no emotional scarring.

There can also be huge ramifications for an abortion on not only the mother but the father as well.

I would be fine with limiting all abortions to only those of rape and life of the mother for right now. that would cut the abortion rate by more than 90%.

and JB, look at a picture of a removed tumor and tell me you don't get the same 'that's so fucked up' feeling. Won't prove anything other than the fact that anything that is made inside you body will look gory, especially when covered in blood.

Try not to appeal to emotion. Pathos is far weaker than logos. At least the other 'lifer' was polite from the start.

Thank you for saying that, now I don't have to. I agree with him 100% JB, that was uncalled for and unnecessary.