Lame Name Dame
New Member
The format on Yahoo!Answers is not good for proper conversation, but I had this brief exchange with a creationist some days ago, reported for your comments and amusement mostly. Translation is mine.
ME:
I have read on Y!A:
"Adaptation is a modification with loss of information...
Evolution is a modification with increase of information...
There is no process or physical law allowing information to increase in an orderly, complex and functional way....
Information tends, spontaneously, to dissipate, not to accumulate in an orderly way...
The only event through which information accumulates in a complex way is an active and intelligent intervention..."
I think the writer does not use the same dictionary as I, especially regarding the word "information". What is your rigorous definition of information? An example related to DNA would be appreciated.
CREATIONIST (the same guy who wrote the sentences I was quoting in my question):
A brick wall possesses "information". This "information" is the way bricks have been laid. A mechanism possesses "information" regarding its functioning, purpose and design. Matter, as you will know, is linked to energy by the renown formula E=mc^2. Matter is defined as "energy at rest", ie "energy packaged" under form of matter. According to the laws of physics, for those who know them, EVERYTHING tends towards dispersion, matter should not even exist. Matter possesses more information than energy. It is "orderly" energy and the order is not spontaneous. A spontaneous transformation (TOTALLY spontaneous...) from energy to matter does not occur.
A human cell possesses, in its DNA, 3 GIGABYTES of information. That is the information necessary to form the human being and make it "work".
Information is what characterises the difference among states of order. More order means more information.
DNA is pure information. It is matter ordered in an excelse way. Characterised by an immense quantity of information.
Moreover, whoever follows astronomy will know the phenomenon of black hole "evaporation". Matter which enters, may perhaps exit under form of radiation. These radiations correspond to the matter in entrance, but they have lost the original information. I hope my answer was clear, I did the best I could.
ME:
No, that wasn't clear at all. A wall does not possess information regarding its functioning, purpose and design. Looking at a fence wall I do not know whether it has been built to keep people in or out.
"More order means more information".
The difference between dissolved NaCl and a NaCl crystal lies in the orderly disposition. But Na and Cl orderly assemble by virtue of their chemical properties with no need for an active and intelligent intervention. Therefore information may increase "spontaneously"? Ice is more orderly than water, how much more information does it contain? What is the unit measuring this information? This is what I meant when I asked for a rigorous definition.
P.S. Human genome contains 3 Mbp (milion base pairs), corresponding to 800 Mb (megabyte). [My fault - ought to have been 3000 Mbp].
CREATIONIST:
The wall has been built. Information was added to the system. Bricks were laid in order. Bricks do not lay themselves, as an initial action, to form the wall. My bad, I should have been more precise. The wall did not self-assemble. Ice does.
Bricks do not form by themselves. Crystals of NaCl or other types of crystal do.
By "increase in information" we may intend the increase in "functional complexity", that is, the increase in non-spontaneous and/or purposeful order. The order increasing in non spontaneous way needs an active intervention. That active intervention feeds information to the system.
In DNA there are 3 billion base pairs, for an information total of 3 Gigabyte.
ME:
Ahhh that's how it's done...
I define evolution = increase in information. I define increase in information = increase in order caused by the intelligent intervention of a superior being. Therefore evolution may only have been caused by an intelligent being, by definition! It's the squaring of the circle! That really solved my doubts.
By the way, I lost some zeroes along the road. You cannot convert Gigabases in Gigabyte. One byte = 8 bit = 4 DNA bases.
The guy did not reply any more. I gave him a Best Answer for the effort, even though it makes no sense.
I think it recaps creationist tactics nicely:
Vaguely form a concept, dress it in pseudo-scientific jargon, sprinkle a few sweeping statements that cannot be disproven until you accept to nail down the concept. When confronted, release a smoke curtain and flee.
I have a few more like these. Care for a sequel?
ME:
I have read on Y!A:
"Adaptation is a modification with loss of information...
Evolution is a modification with increase of information...
There is no process or physical law allowing information to increase in an orderly, complex and functional way....
Information tends, spontaneously, to dissipate, not to accumulate in an orderly way...
The only event through which information accumulates in a complex way is an active and intelligent intervention..."
I think the writer does not use the same dictionary as I, especially regarding the word "information". What is your rigorous definition of information? An example related to DNA would be appreciated.
CREATIONIST (the same guy who wrote the sentences I was quoting in my question):
A brick wall possesses "information". This "information" is the way bricks have been laid. A mechanism possesses "information" regarding its functioning, purpose and design. Matter, as you will know, is linked to energy by the renown formula E=mc^2. Matter is defined as "energy at rest", ie "energy packaged" under form of matter. According to the laws of physics, for those who know them, EVERYTHING tends towards dispersion, matter should not even exist. Matter possesses more information than energy. It is "orderly" energy and the order is not spontaneous. A spontaneous transformation (TOTALLY spontaneous...) from energy to matter does not occur.
A human cell possesses, in its DNA, 3 GIGABYTES of information. That is the information necessary to form the human being and make it "work".
Information is what characterises the difference among states of order. More order means more information.
DNA is pure information. It is matter ordered in an excelse way. Characterised by an immense quantity of information.
Moreover, whoever follows astronomy will know the phenomenon of black hole "evaporation". Matter which enters, may perhaps exit under form of radiation. These radiations correspond to the matter in entrance, but they have lost the original information. I hope my answer was clear, I did the best I could.
ME:
No, that wasn't clear at all. A wall does not possess information regarding its functioning, purpose and design. Looking at a fence wall I do not know whether it has been built to keep people in or out.
"More order means more information".
The difference between dissolved NaCl and a NaCl crystal lies in the orderly disposition. But Na and Cl orderly assemble by virtue of their chemical properties with no need for an active and intelligent intervention. Therefore information may increase "spontaneously"? Ice is more orderly than water, how much more information does it contain? What is the unit measuring this information? This is what I meant when I asked for a rigorous definition.
P.S. Human genome contains 3 Mbp (milion base pairs), corresponding to 800 Mb (megabyte). [My fault - ought to have been 3000 Mbp].
CREATIONIST:
The wall has been built. Information was added to the system. Bricks were laid in order. Bricks do not lay themselves, as an initial action, to form the wall. My bad, I should have been more precise. The wall did not self-assemble. Ice does.
Bricks do not form by themselves. Crystals of NaCl or other types of crystal do.
By "increase in information" we may intend the increase in "functional complexity", that is, the increase in non-spontaneous and/or purposeful order. The order increasing in non spontaneous way needs an active intervention. That active intervention feeds information to the system.
In DNA there are 3 billion base pairs, for an information total of 3 Gigabyte.
ME:
Ahhh that's how it's done...
I define evolution = increase in information. I define increase in information = increase in order caused by the intelligent intervention of a superior being. Therefore evolution may only have been caused by an intelligent being, by definition! It's the squaring of the circle! That really solved my doubts.
By the way, I lost some zeroes along the road. You cannot convert Gigabases in Gigabyte. One byte = 8 bit = 4 DNA bases.
The guy did not reply any more. I gave him a Best Answer for the effort, even though it makes no sense.
I think it recaps creationist tactics nicely:
Vaguely form a concept, dress it in pseudo-scientific jargon, sprinkle a few sweeping statements that cannot be disproven until you accept to nail down the concept. When confronted, release a smoke curtain and flee.
I have a few more like these. Care for a sequel?