9/11

[ImprobableJoe]

Not saying I believe in the conspiracy theory or anything, but i do believe that it doesn't necessarily mean that it involves Bush or the government or whoever to be more than what the official report declared. There was a huge insurance policy taken out for the buildings a short time before and there were temperatures in the basement of the building that were far higher than jet fuel can create. Possibly sabotage? Good way to turn a profit and there's always a motive when money is involve.

Not saying I believe all of it, but it's definitely possible. The commission report sure as hell isn't giving all the details, so we have to question what was given to us.

Except that your claims aren't actually true, are they? Before you attribute agency to things like "temperatures in the basement of the building that were far higher than jet fuel can create," shouldn't you make sure that the thing is actually true, and wouldn't even matter if it was true, because it doesn't prove ANYTHING? Because that particular claim ISN'T true. So, where does that leave you?

 

[Synystyr]

Reality doesn't make any sort of dent on a conspiracy theorist. I made a comment about how someone can reject your particular stupidity, and still believe some other potentially stupid thing themselves. You have 9-11 delusions, XC(A)libur has Zionist delusions, neither one of you have both feet planted in reality.

Presenting yourself as a moderate doesn't inherently give you more credibility. I could easily say you don't have your feet planted in reality for equating zionism to delusion and conspiracy. Zionism by historical context is textbook conspiracy. No dice. From your posts it sounds like you don't think zionism is even real, I don't know if that is your position, maybe you want to clarify that.

 

[Synystyr]

No, but it helps. Much like conspiracy theorists, you've presented an old, isolated incident as proof that [group] is evil. Granted, you are a far cry from spamming "WAKE UP PEOPLE!" But even if you could prove that the motivations for the attack were sinister and not a misunderstanding, an incident that is over 40 years old speaks little to the nation's current motivations. From what I know about the history of the Israeli Defense Force, its not outside the realm of possibility that the USS Liberty attack was just a friendly-fire scenario gone horribly wrong. They have a habit of responding excessively when attacked. Look at the Jordan incident. I'm not saying they're innocent, but wouldn't you be a little jumpy if every single one of the nations bordering you wanted to see your country and its people nuked to dust?

Not that it means much to you, but I find the USS Liberty a much more damning "conspiracy" than anything to date. There are tons of witnesses who say that the NSA has clipped out pieces of tape that confirms Israel knew the USS Liberty was a US ship. The government at the time didn't buy Israel's official story, but that was all hidden until the Freedom of Information Act. The Liberty was not a gun ship, and looked nothing like Egyptian tankers. It would be like saying the terrorists didn't mean to hit the world trade center, they thought it was an IHOP.

Its not my aim to insinuate that all Israelis have sinister motives today because of the USS Liberty, but there is evidence aiming toward their dishonesty about a "tragedy". Just because official PR whitewashes everything doesn't mean the default position HAS TO BE an accident. Government explanations are appeals to authority with no more credibility than Alex Jones, especially with the whitewash reputation. Its a shame that trust in the government has resulted in slamming skepticism at every turn.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Presenting yourself as a moderate doesn't inherently give you more credibility. I could easily say you don't have your feet planted in reality for equating zionism to delusion and conspiracy. Zionism by historical context is textbook conspiracy. No dice. From your posts it sounds like you don't think zionism is even real, I don't know if that is your position, maybe you want to clarify that.

I don't even know what "Zionism" is supposed to mean when conspiracy nutters say it. As near as I can tell, Zionism was a "conspiracy" to create a modern Jewish state in the Middle East. They succeeded. When people like you say "Zionism" it seems to be a sinister plot to rule the world, involving powerful Jewish bankers manipulating governments around the world, and is behind every third bad thing that has ever happened. IOW, "Zionism" seems to be a way for many conspiracy theorists to be antisemitic without being openly racist... although it doesn't really work.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Not that it means much to you, but I find the USS Liberty a much more damning "conspiracy" than anything to date. There are tons of witnesses who say that the NSA has clipped out pieces of tape that confirms Israel knew the USS Liberty was a US ship. The government at the time didn't buy Israel's official story, but that was all hidden until the Freedom of Information Act. The Liberty was not a gun ship, and looked nothing like Egyptian tankers. It would be like saying the terrorists didn't mean to hit the world trade center, they thought it was an IHOP.

Its not my aim to insinuate that all Israelis have sinister motives today because of the USS Liberty, but there is evidence aiming toward their dishonesty about a "tragedy". Just because official PR whitewashes everything doesn't mean the default position HAS TO BE an accident. Government explanations are appeals to authority with no more credibility than Alex Jones, especially with the whitewash reputation. Its a shame that trust in the government has resulted in slamming skepticism at every turn.

So you're saying that the NSA was in on the conspiracy as well... anyone else? The CIA? The mafia?

Let me turn this around on you, since you seem to be missing the point: Just because official PR whitewashes everything doesn't mean that you get to just make stuff up. You're not being a skeptic, your being a fantasist.

 

[Nemesis]

Improbable Joe do you know what a secret service is? You seem to think everything in the world just happens and no one knows about it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Improbable Joe do you know what a secret service is? You seem to think everything in the world just happens and no one knows about it.

What I'm saying is that things happen, and YOU don't know anything about it, which isn't an excuse for you to make things up.

 

[Nemesis]

That's just what I said. There's no doubt that there is more blame to go around than was taken credit for. The people in charge made sure that the investigation painted them in the best possible light.

You make the point that there's a huge difference between "the government was more incompetent than we'll ever know" and "the whole thing was a CIA plan.

What I'm saying is that things happen, and YOU don't know anything about it, which isn't an excuse for you to make things up.

No. You are saying "oh well, the report is retarded so the government was just incompetent and it was just covering his ass". You assume that the government does a mistake and then covers it up and say that people who think that a government does things intentionally are stupid. And, again, you really don't know what a secret service is. If X says "9/11 was a conspiracy", X doesn't mean "I know what happened" he just says he isn't a sheep who believes anything the government tells him and when he sees something odd or wrong he just says "oh well, they are incompetent".

 

[ImprobableJoe]

No. You are saying "oh well, the report is retarded so the government was just incompetent and it was just covering his ass". You assume that the government does a mistake and then covers it up and say that people who think that a government does things intentionally are stupid. And, again, you really don't know what a secret service is. If X says "9/11 was a conspiracy", X doesn't mean "I know what happened" he just says he isn't a sheep who believes anything the government tells him and when he sees something odd or wrong he just says "oh well, they are incompetent".

I'm saying that you can't prove anything else, there's no evidence suggesting anything else, most of the claims backing up the conspiracy theory are outright fiction, and the theory that lies behind the conspiracy belief is completely fucking stupid. What conspiracy theory nutters believe about 9-11 is such nonsense that if it were in a movie even little kids would see all the gaping holes it it.

Why don't you tell me what a "secret service" is, since I'm killing time and you seem so eager to waste my time with your paranoia.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDekNNGR6sY
I'm just a little skeptical about the whole 9/11 thing.
So, what do you think?

Let's go back to this... are you skeptical, or do you believe that there was a government conspiracy, or an "evil Jew" conspiracy (like Synystyr), or do you just reject government reports because governments are mean?

 

[Synystyr]

So you're saying that the NSA was in on the conspiracy as well... anyone else? The CIA? The mafia?

Let me turn this around on you, since you seem to be missing the point: Just because official PR whitewashes everything doesn't mean that you get to just make stuff up. You're not being a skeptic, your being a fantasist.

You always pull that crap. The NSA is the NSA. Chicago tribune did a pretty big piece on it and had input from a lot of people who survived the Liberty; the NSA is who releases the documents, the NSA clipped pieces of audio, thus the NSA is "in on it". Withholding evidence is obstruction of justice and punishable by law, but that doesn't apply when you are the law.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You always pull that crap. The NSA is the NSA. Chicago tribune did a pretty big piece on it and had input from a lot of people who survived the Liberty; the NSA is who releases the documents, the NSA clipped pieces of audio, thus the NSA is "in on it". Withholding evidence is obstruction of justice and punishable by law, but that doesn't apply when you are the law.

What does any of that have to do with 9/11?

 

[Synystyr]

Let's go back to this... are you skeptical, or do you believe that there was a government conspiracy, or an "evil Jew" conspiracy (like Synystyr), or do you just reject government reports because governments are mean?

Purposefully misrepresenting my position time after time with your condescending bullshit. You're making this a flame war and I'm not interested. Fuck off.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Purposefully misrepresenting my position time after time with your condescending bullshit. You're making this a flame war and I'm not interested. Fuck off.

Can't answer the question, so you have a temper tantrum and run away? Really?

I made it a "flame war" by asking you to relate your post to the topic?

Thanks for going away. Your presence here is a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Synystyr]

Can't answer the question, so you have a temper tantrum and run away? Really?

I made it a "flame war" by asking you to relate your post to the topic?

Thanks for going away. Your presence here is a waste of everyone's time.

Insinuating that I'm a racist, constantly bringing up crap like aliens and mafia, and claiming that people who don't hold your position are not in "reality". You're an ad hominem machine who doesn't care what the answer is to any question because you've done nothing but dismiss it with "CIA ALIENS MAFIA NUTTERS". You're right, I wasted my time responding to your fucking ad hominems. For the last time, fuck off.

Black helicopters area 51 illuminati delusional racist i'm right ur wrong nutter. No thank you.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Insinuating that I'm a racist, constantly bringing up crap like aliens and mafia, and claiming that people who don't hold your position are not in "reality". You're an ad hominem machine who doesn't care what the answer is to any question because you've done nothing but dismiss it with "CIA ALIENS MAFIA NUTTERS". You're right, I wasted my time responding to your fucking ad hominems. For the last time, fuck off.

Black helicopters area 51 illuminati delusional racist i'm right ur wrong nutter. No thank you.

Awww... feel bad when you are accurately described?

You brought up the USS Liberty conspiracy nonsense for no other reason than to justify accusing Jewish people of being involved in other conspiracies. Was there some other reason?

Or, like with all conspiracy theorists, are you just throwing out random nonsense and pretending it is all related. Oh, wait, don't answer it, throw a tantrum instead. That'll show me!

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Except that your claims aren't actually true, are they? Before you attribute agency to things like "temperatures in the basement of the building that were far higher than jet fuel can create," shouldn't you make sure that the thing is actually true, and wouldn't even matter if it was true, because it doesn't prove ANYTHING? Because that particular claim ISN'T true. So, where does that leave you?

Oh, apparently someone's a bit snippy eh?

Well since you INSIST.

I said that the temperatures in the basement were higher than jet fuel can create. The reason for this is because there was molten steel in the basement. Jet fuel burns at approx. 1000 degrees C. Steel melts at approx. 1500 degrees C. Therefore, temperatures were greater than that at which jet fuel burns. Or maybe the fact that never before has a steel building EVER collapsed because of a fire would contribute to this dilemma?

And as for the bit about even if my claim was true it doesn't prove anything... Are you just speaking out of your ass? If the fires were greater than what jet fuel burns at, then obviously the claims they made about how the building fell are complete bullshit. In case I have to spell this out further, that means THEY LIED.

So, where does that leave you?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Oh, apparently someone's a bit snippy eh?

Well since you INSIST.

I said that the temperatures in the basement were higher than jet fuel can create. The reason for this is because there was molten steel in the basement. Jet fuel burns at approx. 1000 degrees C. Steel melts at approx. 1500 degrees C. Therefore, temperatures were greater than that at which jet fuel burns. Or maybe the fact that never before has a steel building EVER collapsed because of a fire would contribute to this dilemma?

And as for the bit about even if my claim was true it doesn't prove anything... Are you just speaking out of your ass? If the fires were greater than what jet fuel burns at, then obviously the claims they made about how the building fell are complete bullshit. In case I have to spell this out further, that means THEY LIED.

So, where does that leave you?

That leaves me waiting for you to provide evidence. Still. Evidence that there were fires greater than possible with materials at hand (not just jet fuel, there was also a whole building worth of stuff.) Evidence that there was molten metal. Evidence that this hypothetical metal was steel.

Then you have me left wondering how many skyscrapers have been intentionally

Also, it leaves me wondering how, without evidence, you make all these leaps to your belief that someone lied to you... which I have the feeling is something you believed before 9-11, and are willing to twist anything to support that view. I'm still left wondering what sort of story you can concoct where there's any logic or reason behind this hypothetical conspiracy.

At least tell me EXACTLY what you think happened, and why... instead of throwing random facts and non-facts out and expecting them to magically transform into a rational theory on their own. Because, frankly, right now your story comes off as being deeply, profoundly idiotic. That is, if what you claim is true, it is the DUMBEST conspiracy ever, and happened for no good reason at all.

So, come on. Enlighten me.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I said that the temperatures in the basement were higher than jet fuel can create. The reason for this is because there was molten steel in the basement. Jet fuel burns at approx. 1000 degrees C. Steel melts at approx. 1500 degrees C. Therefore, temperatures were greater than that at which jet fuel burns.

I'm with Joe here. Supply proof, especially proof for this molten metal being steel as opposed to, say, aluminium - which is the far more likely explanation for any molten metal lying around.

Or maybe the fact that never before has a steel building EVER collapsed because of a fire would contribute to this dilemma?

Wow! Did you see how fucking huge the jet was that flew into that building? I wonder if that helped.

Also, just because jet fuel burns at 1000 degrees doesn't mean the fire couldn't have been hotter for other reasons. Air flow, for example.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Just read your posts, they're good points that i left out. Unfortunately I have to go to school first so most of them will have to wait until I get home. I will edit them in when I do.

First thing is, Joe, I was 10 when 9/11 happened, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't completely wrapped up in conspiracy theories at the time. It was after reading the 9/11 commission report a few years afterwards that I started to doubt the official story.

Which brings me to my next point. I don't KNOW exactly what happened and why, otherwise I'd have told you what I thought before now. What I do know is that the official story contains as much bullshit as the bible. I'm not expecting random facts to magically transform into a rational theory on their own, I'm just showing that some of the things we have been told were false, so why should we believe the rest?

I'll have to see what could have possibly been in the offices that could have significantly increased the jet fuel by 500 C though.

Th1sWasATriumph,

The building had a steel frame. The evidence was in the rubble so I can't exactly point to it and say here it is. So tell me what proof you'd like to see that I can actually supply.

Secondly, the buildings were designed to withstand forces far greater than that, and would have tipped to the side if a force great enough to knock it over hit it. (I'll get that for you when I get home)

Also I think that the 1000 C is the highest temp at which it burns, but I'll have to check that when I get home later.