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8 Questions for atheists
- Thread starter ThePuppyTurtle
- Start date
1: Why should I follow your moral system?
You shouldn't. I accept that some people are better and nicer than I am, and I admire them for it. Try to be like them. That's not to say I don't consider myself a fairly moral person. I try not to do bad things unless I have to, get tricked into it or don't realise the consequences.
2: Would you be willing to fight and possibly die for someone else's right to die for you?
In theory, yes. Absolutely yes. The snag is that I'm a complete coward so might not be particularly useful. And I would be very, very reluctant to kill people. But in the situation you propose, I would definitely at least try to fight, yes. Unless people I know might suffer for my joining this resistance.
3: Why do you care that people believe in God?
Because they almost always come to that conclusion because they do not apply critical thinking to the question, and that is an unhealthy way to think. Because moderates give a base for the crazies to stand on. Because they don't speak out enough against the crazies, they don't isolate them enough.
With regards to the "30 billion conventions" question... I personally have never attended a convention of any kind. But the people that do co to conventions presumably do so to meet like-minded people. This is especially important in the US, where the vast majority of people are religious. It is important not to feel alone, and going to such an event is a good way to do that.
4: If you found genuine, empirical evidence that demonstrates, beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of God, would you destroy it or tell the world? [paraphrased]
I would convert on the spot and tell the world of my discovery. Why would I destroy it? I do not have faith that God does not exist. And I would not need faith that they do exist, now that I have found this evidence. Faith is of no value to me. But empirical evidence is of immense value.
5: If you found irrefutable evidence demonstrating that evolution does not happen, would you destroy it or tell the world? [paraphrased]
Tell the world of course! I would overnight become the most celebrated figure in modern science! I would be insane not to.
6: If your child had a conversion, would this affect your relationship with them?
I don't have kids, but what I do have are Christian friends and relatives, so I can only base my answer on them. I think it would affect my relationship with them, but only for things like, say, dinnertime conversations. The topic of religion might come up more frequently than it might otherwise. But it's not as if I constantly badger my relatives about their religions. No, I get on with them and love them without any issue. So a simpler answer would be: probably not.
7: How do you live knowing full well that everything you do will likely amount to inconsequence? [paraphrased]
Ummm, because I enjoy life. Obviously. I'm not too fussed about the idea of death right now. I'm not depressed because of it. I find life pretty good and reality pretty cool, for the most part. So what if my name isn't remembered in a thousand years? I certainly don't mind, and I doubt I will when that time comes. Right now, things are pretty sweet.
8: Aren't you just making it up?
Pretty much. I've never really felt the need to have a purpose to my existence. I want to enjoy myself and enable others to enjoy themselves. That is my purpose, and perhaps it will change later on. I have the freedom to make it up. You, on the other hand, are condemned to have someone else make it up for you.
EDIT: Actually, that's not quite true. Right now, my purpose is to correct this error, then get something to eat and then go out later. But in life as a whole, I want to do what I said above.
You shouldn't. I accept that some people are better and nicer than I am, and I admire them for it. Try to be like them. That's not to say I don't consider myself a fairly moral person. I try not to do bad things unless I have to, get tricked into it or don't realise the consequences.
2: Would you be willing to fight and possibly die for someone else's right to die for you?
In theory, yes. Absolutely yes. The snag is that I'm a complete coward so might not be particularly useful. And I would be very, very reluctant to kill people. But in the situation you propose, I would definitely at least try to fight, yes. Unless people I know might suffer for my joining this resistance.
3: Why do you care that people believe in God?
Because they almost always come to that conclusion because they do not apply critical thinking to the question, and that is an unhealthy way to think. Because moderates give a base for the crazies to stand on. Because they don't speak out enough against the crazies, they don't isolate them enough.
With regards to the "30 billion conventions" question... I personally have never attended a convention of any kind. But the people that do co to conventions presumably do so to meet like-minded people. This is especially important in the US, where the vast majority of people are religious. It is important not to feel alone, and going to such an event is a good way to do that.
4: If you found genuine, empirical evidence that demonstrates, beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of God, would you destroy it or tell the world? [paraphrased]
I would convert on the spot and tell the world of my discovery. Why would I destroy it? I do not have faith that God does not exist. And I would not need faith that they do exist, now that I have found this evidence. Faith is of no value to me. But empirical evidence is of immense value.
5: If you found irrefutable evidence demonstrating that evolution does not happen, would you destroy it or tell the world? [paraphrased]
Tell the world of course! I would overnight become the most celebrated figure in modern science! I would be insane not to.
6: If your child had a conversion, would this affect your relationship with them?
I don't have kids, but what I do have are Christian friends and relatives, so I can only base my answer on them. I think it would affect my relationship with them, but only for things like, say, dinnertime conversations. The topic of religion might come up more frequently than it might otherwise. But it's not as if I constantly badger my relatives about their religions. No, I get on with them and love them without any issue. So a simpler answer would be: probably not.
7: How do you live knowing full well that everything you do will likely amount to inconsequence? [paraphrased]
Ummm, because I enjoy life. Obviously. I'm not too fussed about the idea of death right now. I'm not depressed because of it. I find life pretty good and reality pretty cool, for the most part. So what if my name isn't remembered in a thousand years? I certainly don't mind, and I doubt I will when that time comes. Right now, things are pretty sweet.
8: Aren't you just making it up?
Pretty much. I've never really felt the need to have a purpose to my existence. I want to enjoy myself and enable others to enjoy themselves. That is my purpose, and perhaps it will change later on. I have the freedom to make it up. You, on the other hand, are condemned to have someone else make it up for you.
EDIT: Actually, that's not quite true. Right now, my purpose is to correct this error, then get something to eat and then go out later. But in life as a whole, I want to do what I said above.
Didn't watch the video, read Nashers answers, pretty much agree with them. The only caveat being the god evidence thing, not that I would suppress it, but that I don't think evidence of the deity being claimed to exist by Christians is actually a physical possibility even if he did exist (see the "what evidence would you accept" thread)
1: Aside from the problem that there is no "atheist moral code", you don't have to... I cannot assert that I'm always acting morally even, as I don't always have the means to determine whether my actions are maximizing happiness and fairness. On the contrary this moral frame work that Sam Harris proposes (and which I generally like), requires a lot of leg work. But I do believe that if more people got on board with the idea of truly determining which moral actions are more likely to maximize overall happiness and fairness in a given situation we would be better equipped as a society in tackling moral issues. This new secular moral "tool" may also lead people away from the dependence of ancient religious/cult moral standards that religious leaders claim to have as objective standards.
2: My willingness to fight for certain causes is not unconditional....one of the many things I learned about myself in the military. In your scenario, I likely would join a "resistance" in some capacity.
3: Pretty much the answer that Matt Dillahunty gives. People often act based on their beliefs. I would modify this and go further by first noting that people can also be hypocrites and act in ways that contradict their beliefs, but positive action happens enough in the sphere of US political elections that you have politicians and people in seats of power who have no qualms with theocratic rule.
In day to day life god belief also seems to coincide with beliefs in other super natural and other unsubstantiated claims, so I perceive it as a gateway for all manner of positive belief in things for which there is no evidence. Why do we have such pervasive belief in homeopathy, climate change denial, and NWO conspiracies? I would not be surprised if it often results from the extension of the basic premise of even the most moderate faith/distorted evidence based belief in the existence of a deity.
4: Too many problems with your scenario of the "incredible object". To say the least, I would not destroy it and I would submit it to scientific channels for investigation.
5: Same ends as 4
6: Not unless he or she lets it affect the relationship.
7: Despite how this story of the human species ends, it's all we got. Better make it count or at least try not to go out of the way to taint it in some way. Believing in an afterlife isn't going to change the fact that this natural world is likely all there is. All that faith in the afterlife does is serve as a band aid from the "harder question" you proposed to us.
8: Again...band aid. If you think my "fiction" isn't enough to live for, how does more of what we certainly can call fiction (religion) change what you know to be the likely ultimate outcome?
2: My willingness to fight for certain causes is not unconditional....one of the many things I learned about myself in the military. In your scenario, I likely would join a "resistance" in some capacity.
3: Pretty much the answer that Matt Dillahunty gives. People often act based on their beliefs. I would modify this and go further by first noting that people can also be hypocrites and act in ways that contradict their beliefs, but positive action happens enough in the sphere of US political elections that you have politicians and people in seats of power who have no qualms with theocratic rule.
In day to day life god belief also seems to coincide with beliefs in other super natural and other unsubstantiated claims, so I perceive it as a gateway for all manner of positive belief in things for which there is no evidence. Why do we have such pervasive belief in homeopathy, climate change denial, and NWO conspiracies? I would not be surprised if it often results from the extension of the basic premise of even the most moderate faith/distorted evidence based belief in the existence of a deity.
4: Too many problems with your scenario of the "incredible object". To say the least, I would not destroy it and I would submit it to scientific channels for investigation.
5: Same ends as 4
6: Not unless he or she lets it affect the relationship.
7: Despite how this story of the human species ends, it's all we got. Better make it count or at least try not to go out of the way to taint it in some way. Believing in an afterlife isn't going to change the fact that this natural world is likely all there is. All that faith in the afterlife does is serve as a band aid from the "harder question" you proposed to us.
8: Again...band aid. If you think my "fiction" isn't enough to live for, how does more of what we certainly can call fiction (religion) change what you know to be the likely ultimate outcome?
Master_Ghost_Knight
New Member
1. Why should I follow your moral system?
This question makes the assumption that there is a distinct morality for atheists and for christians, which is not entirely true. To expand on this let me perhaps answer your first version of question, "Why should I be moral without God?"
You may not realize, both this questions have an underlying theme that allowed you to form this question in the first place, and that should be able to answer this question on its own. That theme is "being moral matters, even without a God". Many apologists argue that morals can only come from God and that without God there would be no reason not to commit atrocious acts. This argument fails for several reasons.
First, it is an appeal to consequence. If we assume that morals could not exist without a God that says nothing about the existence of God, it would only mean that if God did not exist then there would no morals, you could even say that altruism is just a form of delusion but that would just be the world and reality is what it is. The argument only appears to work because everyone recognizes this important intrinsic morality without a God, and for the sake of this we can confuse it for a morality with God.
Secondly, if it was indeed the case, then the only reason why people should behave morally is out of fear of God, and as you have pointed out this is not the case. This is a very blinding perspective of things, as it assumes out of hand and without justification that someone without a belief in God should be a rampant criminal while the belief in a God should stop people from behaving immorally. But let's take a look at reality, the world's most vile atrocities and gratuitous cruelty where made by people with strong conviction in God and a God made morality, and we are talking atrocities that would make Hitler look like a choir boy.
Atheist are often being unfairly portrayed as immoral, I point at those people's faces that religion certainly doesn't make you behave any more morally.
This is only a narrow perspective about some of my views on religion and morality, and I certainly could still fill a book with what I have not expanded here. But I have to cut short what already is a long winded answer, even though I have expanded why a religious view of morality is misguided I haven't yet expanded why a secular view of morality is important, and I will do such a thing.
Simple answer: "Because it matters to me". There are 3 kinds of people you may find, people that matter, people who are indifferent and people you hate. Why you should be moral to people that you care about should be obvious to anyone, because you want to keep them and benefit of the relation you have with them and thus you are interested in investing in their wellbeing. For the people you don't really care about, which are the far majority of people you encounter in your life, you have absolutely no interest into going out of your way just to stab them in the chest and rip their hearts out plus risking whatever consequences to your wellbeing resulting from that unnecessary conflict. But perhaps the most important, and for reasons that apply across the all spectrum, why should you be moral to people you don't like? Because you live quite comfortably in a society that is only possible with a concerted effort between people that despite their conflicts, they do not harm each other in order to construct that comfort that you so much appreciate.
When someone drops his/her wallet on the street I feel the need to pick it up and return it without seeking any reward, because I understand the discomfort that people go through when they lose their money and their documents, I am able to stand on his/her shoes and feel the uneasiness for them. And I would like very much that people would return my wallet if I was the one who had accidently dropped it on the street, and that can only happen if when it is my turn to fulfill the role of delivering the wallet I actually do it.
I could expand for pages on the merits of understanding morality without made answers, and how can we improve ourselves to become ever more moral, but I will save that for some other time.
2: Would you be willing to fight and possibly die for someone else's right to disagree with you?
Short answer, Yes.
If I am to expand on this I would say it depends, if by disagreeing you mean acting up and kill other people for spurious reasons then I don't give a rat's ass that you die or you are oppressed. Just so we are clear, it is comparable to saying I wouldn't fight for Hitler's ideology to kill jews. Other than this extreme cases I would pretty much fight out of principle against this damaging notion of taught police, because effectively it is an intrinsically immoral attitude to go out of your own way to make someone else's life a misery just because they think differently. And I would also very much like that other people would fight for me, when in turn it is my freedom that is being infringed.
3: Why do you care that people believe in God?
I really don't care as much as I should that other people believe in God. I do care a little, because I myself used to believe in God and I know how it was like. It is a matter of honesty to tell other people not to let themselves be deceived, and I would contest that they would live happier lives without a belief in a God and all the baggage that comes with it. Plus we get a kick out of it.
4. If you have irrefutable evidence for the existence of God, would you share it or destroy it?
The example that you gave about a volcano or whatever is irrelevant, it applies for whatever excuse it maybe.
I as an atheist am not concerned about keeping the status quo of an atheist, it is just a byproduct of my life experience. Contrary to what many apologist my tell you, I have not become an atheist because I am angry at God or because I want to sin without thinking about divine punishment. I became an atheist because I decided that truth to me mattered most than unreal consequences. If it turns out that there is a god then there is a god, if such an evidence were possible then I would believe, it is not for me to deny the nature of reality, why would I?
5. If you have irrefutable evidence against evolution, would you destroy it or share it?
Having answered number 4 I can just reference it because in principle the reasons are the same. If evolution is false, then it is false. I cannot change the nature of reality just because I don't like it nor can I ignore it for what it is.
6: If your child had a conversion, would this affect your relationship with them?
I would be sad, but I wouldn't disown him/her or even stopped from having a positive relationship or do things that parents do with their kids.
7: How do you live knowing that your life is futile?
This question commits the mistake of assuming that I think my life is futile. My life matters to me even if not for anyone else, that alone should be enough.
Some people have this strange idea that because it will one day be gone then it didn't really matter. When you go to the dentist does it not matter that he uses anesthetic before removing your teeth? The pain will be gone and in a couple of days you will be good as new anyways.
I don't worry too much about what happens to me when I die, I will be busy not existing to care. I do realize I will one day die just like everyone else, but life is just what it is, we may not like it but we don't have a choice, but despite that I am not afraid of death on the other hand it is the idea of living forever that scares me.
8: Aren't you just making it up? [a bogus reason for existence]
It is also a very common between apologists to claim that there is no purpose without a God. I would contest that by saying that God doesn't offer any purpose either. Attributing a universal purpose to god is creating a bogus reason for existence. There is nothing in the concept of God or in God wanting you to exist that gives any purpose to anything what so ever. Here is a question that I would like answered. What is the purpose of God?
As I have hinted on the answer to question number 7, there is this misguided notion that there is this universal purpose to everything. No such thing as a universal purpose exists or needs to exist, not even to give a purpose to your life that matters to you.
This question makes the assumption that there is a distinct morality for atheists and for christians, which is not entirely true. To expand on this let me perhaps answer your first version of question, "Why should I be moral without God?"
You may not realize, both this questions have an underlying theme that allowed you to form this question in the first place, and that should be able to answer this question on its own. That theme is "being moral matters, even without a God". Many apologists argue that morals can only come from God and that without God there would be no reason not to commit atrocious acts. This argument fails for several reasons.
First, it is an appeal to consequence. If we assume that morals could not exist without a God that says nothing about the existence of God, it would only mean that if God did not exist then there would no morals, you could even say that altruism is just a form of delusion but that would just be the world and reality is what it is. The argument only appears to work because everyone recognizes this important intrinsic morality without a God, and for the sake of this we can confuse it for a morality with God.
Secondly, if it was indeed the case, then the only reason why people should behave morally is out of fear of God, and as you have pointed out this is not the case. This is a very blinding perspective of things, as it assumes out of hand and without justification that someone without a belief in God should be a rampant criminal while the belief in a God should stop people from behaving immorally. But let's take a look at reality, the world's most vile atrocities and gratuitous cruelty where made by people with strong conviction in God and a God made morality, and we are talking atrocities that would make Hitler look like a choir boy.
Atheist are often being unfairly portrayed as immoral, I point at those people's faces that religion certainly doesn't make you behave any more morally.
This is only a narrow perspective about some of my views on religion and morality, and I certainly could still fill a book with what I have not expanded here. But I have to cut short what already is a long winded answer, even though I have expanded why a religious view of morality is misguided I haven't yet expanded why a secular view of morality is important, and I will do such a thing.
Simple answer: "Because it matters to me". There are 3 kinds of people you may find, people that matter, people who are indifferent and people you hate. Why you should be moral to people that you care about should be obvious to anyone, because you want to keep them and benefit of the relation you have with them and thus you are interested in investing in their wellbeing. For the people you don't really care about, which are the far majority of people you encounter in your life, you have absolutely no interest into going out of your way just to stab them in the chest and rip their hearts out plus risking whatever consequences to your wellbeing resulting from that unnecessary conflict. But perhaps the most important, and for reasons that apply across the all spectrum, why should you be moral to people you don't like? Because you live quite comfortably in a society that is only possible with a concerted effort between people that despite their conflicts, they do not harm each other in order to construct that comfort that you so much appreciate.
When someone drops his/her wallet on the street I feel the need to pick it up and return it without seeking any reward, because I understand the discomfort that people go through when they lose their money and their documents, I am able to stand on his/her shoes and feel the uneasiness for them. And I would like very much that people would return my wallet if I was the one who had accidently dropped it on the street, and that can only happen if when it is my turn to fulfill the role of delivering the wallet I actually do it.
I could expand for pages on the merits of understanding morality without made answers, and how can we improve ourselves to become ever more moral, but I will save that for some other time.
2: Would you be willing to fight and possibly die for someone else's right to disagree with you?
Short answer, Yes.
If I am to expand on this I would say it depends, if by disagreeing you mean acting up and kill other people for spurious reasons then I don't give a rat's ass that you die or you are oppressed. Just so we are clear, it is comparable to saying I wouldn't fight for Hitler's ideology to kill jews. Other than this extreme cases I would pretty much fight out of principle against this damaging notion of taught police, because effectively it is an intrinsically immoral attitude to go out of your own way to make someone else's life a misery just because they think differently. And I would also very much like that other people would fight for me, when in turn it is my freedom that is being infringed.
3: Why do you care that people believe in God?
I really don't care as much as I should that other people believe in God. I do care a little, because I myself used to believe in God and I know how it was like. It is a matter of honesty to tell other people not to let themselves be deceived, and I would contest that they would live happier lives without a belief in a God and all the baggage that comes with it. Plus we get a kick out of it.
4. If you have irrefutable evidence for the existence of God, would you share it or destroy it?
The example that you gave about a volcano or whatever is irrelevant, it applies for whatever excuse it maybe.
I as an atheist am not concerned about keeping the status quo of an atheist, it is just a byproduct of my life experience. Contrary to what many apologist my tell you, I have not become an atheist because I am angry at God or because I want to sin without thinking about divine punishment. I became an atheist because I decided that truth to me mattered most than unreal consequences. If it turns out that there is a god then there is a god, if such an evidence were possible then I would believe, it is not for me to deny the nature of reality, why would I?
5. If you have irrefutable evidence against evolution, would you destroy it or share it?
Having answered number 4 I can just reference it because in principle the reasons are the same. If evolution is false, then it is false. I cannot change the nature of reality just because I don't like it nor can I ignore it for what it is.
6: If your child had a conversion, would this affect your relationship with them?
I would be sad, but I wouldn't disown him/her or even stopped from having a positive relationship or do things that parents do with their kids.
7: How do you live knowing that your life is futile?
This question commits the mistake of assuming that I think my life is futile. My life matters to me even if not for anyone else, that alone should be enough.
Some people have this strange idea that because it will one day be gone then it didn't really matter. When you go to the dentist does it not matter that he uses anesthetic before removing your teeth? The pain will be gone and in a couple of days you will be good as new anyways.
I don't worry too much about what happens to me when I die, I will be busy not existing to care. I do realize I will one day die just like everyone else, but life is just what it is, we may not like it but we don't have a choice, but despite that I am not afraid of death on the other hand it is the idea of living forever that scares me.
8: Aren't you just making it up? [a bogus reason for existence]
It is also a very common between apologists to claim that there is no purpose without a God. I would contest that by saying that God doesn't offer any purpose either. Attributing a universal purpose to god is creating a bogus reason for existence. There is nothing in the concept of God or in God wanting you to exist that gives any purpose to anything what so ever. Here is a question that I would like answered. What is the purpose of God?
As I have hinted on the answer to question number 7, there is this misguided notion that there is this universal purpose to everything. No such thing as a universal purpose exists or needs to exist, not even to give a purpose to your life that matters to you.