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[url=http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2012/09/15/offerings-to-the-atheist-dictionary/ said:AronRa[/url]"]Religion: A doctrine of ritual traditions, ceremonies, mythology, and associated dogma of a faith-based belief system which posits a posthumous promise, that some element of ‘self’ (be it a soul, consciousness, or memories, etc.) may, in some sense, continue beyond the death of the physical being.
Myrtonos said:Is any belief in super-human order implied in that definition?
Myrtonos said:I actually said 'super-human order' not just 'super-human', that is an order not signed or legislated by humans, or for that matter, any flesh-and-blood beings.
As I said above, superhuman simply means not signed or legislated by humans, or any other flesh-and-blood beings, you know, like the law of god, or natural laws.Sparhafoc said:I appreciate that but the concept of a 'super-human order' is necessarily predicated on 'super-human' - some agency greater than humans generating order - so if there's none of the latter, then there can be none of the former.
Yes, indeed laws of science are superhuman, because no flesh-and-blood beings can change them, no such beings created them, even machines can't change them. More below.Sparhafoc said:If you treat 'super-human order' to be anything external to human capacity or human agency (i.e chemistry) rather than entailing a being generating that order, then you basically start down the path towards atheism, materialism, science as a religion, because all accept that there is an order to things which humans didn't create but which humans are subject to.
This is why no theorem or scientific theory is a religion, mathematicians and scientists may believe them, and have very good reasons to believe them, but no practices of the sort associated with religions are derived from them. No doctrine of rules, values, rituals or ceremonies are based on those natural laws.Sparhafoc said:That's why I don't think it's a good definition because it doesn't actually result in any explanatory specificity and contradicts its own remit.
I think one cannot define a religion wholly in abstract, conceptual terms - it must contain the practices associated with religions too.
This doesn't make sense.Myrtonos said:Yes, indeed laws of science are superhuman, because no flesh-and-blood beings can change them, no such beings created them, even machines can't change them. More below.Sparhafoc said:If you treat 'super-human order' to be anything external to human capacity or human agency (i.e chemistry) rather than entailing a being generating that order, then you basically start down the path towards atheism, materialism, science as a religion, because all accept that there is an order to things which humans didn't create but which humans are subject to.
Myrtonos said:Sparhafoc said:I appreciate that but the concept of a 'super-human order' is necessarily predicated on 'super-human' - some agency greater than humans generating order - so if there's none of the latter, then there can be none of the former.
As I said above, superhuman simply means not signed or legislated by humans, or any other flesh-and-blood beings, you know, like the law of god, or natural laws.
Myrtonos said:Also, I didn't actually define religion, I said that all religions are founded on a belief in a superhuman order, hoping that any definition given would include being founded on a belief in such an order.
Myrtonos said:Yes, indeed laws of science are superhuman, because no flesh-and-blood beings can change them, no such beings created them, even machines can't change them. More below.
Myrtonos said:This is why no theorem or scientific theory is a religion, mathematicians and scientists may believe them, and have very good reasons to believe them, but no practices of the sort associated with religions are derived from them. No doctrine of rules, values, rituals or ceremonies are based on those natural laws.
Myrtonos said:A religion must believe in a superhuman order, but must be more than just belief in that order.
See below.Sparhafoc said:So then Chemistry could be considered a religion?
But it is not a definition of a religion, the definition must include being founded on a belief in a superhuman order.Sparhafoc said:As I said, that then is not a useful definition of a religion in any way I can see as it lacks the exclusivity you've awarded it.
Yes, superhuman doesn't mean religious in meaning, something superhuman is religious in meaning if, say, a doctrine like Aron Ra defines as religion can be derived from it.Sparhafoc said:Still presents problems for me regarding your definitional question of the thread, firstly because the vast majority of things in the universe are 'superhuman' according to what you've said, but they're not religions meaning it's hard to employ this to get at what a religion actually is. I get what you're trying to say, though, but as I mentioned - I don't think religions can be defined purely in terms of concept - they are practices.
It's the understanding of the laws, not the laws themselves, that change if some event that doesn't conform with that statement is observed.Sparhafoc said:If you don't mind me saying, I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding. Scientific laws are wholly designed, created, and produced by humans. The forces of nature aren't. Scientific laws are collated observations & descriptions of forces of nature under specific and usually limited circumstances. The natural forces are the terrain, and the laws made up by humans are maps attempting to define those forces. Thus laws can change in an instant simply by observing some event that doesn't conform to the descriptive statement of that law.
Well, yes, and for that reason, no religious belief requires humans to fly. Yes, all human rules, rituals and ceremonies are constrained by them, but religious ones are founded on belief in superhuman order, such as the law of god (Abrahamic religions) or natural law, like in Buddhism.Sparhafoc said:Well, from another perspective literally all human rules, rituals and ceremonies are constrained by those natural laws implicitly and can never exceed them. All human practices are bounded by them. One can decree on threat of death that all humans must fly, but humans cannot fly regardless of any such rule.
Once again, I didn't define religions as belief in a superhuman order, but said that any definition given must include being founded on belief in such an order.Sparhafoc said:A scientist must believe (albeit only for the practice of science) that there are only natural mechanisms at play, and that those mechanisms create a specific order so that particular effects necessarily follow particular causes. Thus any and all resulting practices would be obligated to be derived from them.
Of course there is more to a religion than belief in a superhuman order, but all religions are founded on a belief in a superhuman order, this is what sets every professional sport apart from religions.Sparhafoc said:Of course, I am not arguing that science etc. are religions, but rather that your definition seems to fit in with an oft-repeated refrain that science/atheism/materialism are about belief in a non-divine order and consequently are equally religious in format, just without a god. I'd say there is clearly more to a religion than this.
Myrtonos said:But it is not a definition of a religion, the definition must include being founded on a belief in a superhuman order.
Myrtonos said:Yes, superhuman doesn't mean religious in meaning, something superhuman is religious in meaning if, say, a doctrine like Aron Ra defines as religion can be derived from it.
Myrtonos said:It's the understanding of the laws, not the laws themselves, that change if some event that doesn't conform with that statement is observed.
They (scientific laws) may have exceptions, and, like other scientific knowledge, may be modified or rejected based on new evidence and perspectives.
Dragan Glas said:"Laws of science" are not superhuman, since humans decide what is a scientific "law": we infer relationships in Nature, which are then called "laws".
No, I did give an example of a religion without a God. Even Buddhism is founded on a belief in a superhuman order, in that case the law of karma.Sparhafoc said:Are you not proposing this rather than saying it is accepted fact? I believe it's the former, and I've explained why I don't think it can be promoted to the latter. From my understanding, you're extrapolating from the better known monotheisms whereas they were quite distinct from the many forms of religion which predated them. Perhaps the stronger, better ideas (in fitness terms) posit a fully ordered system which is why they've tended to fare better historically.
Nope, our understanding improves. They are not invented in the way that the laws of a sport game are.Sparhafoc said:This, though, is a different point. It's unquestionably the laws that change - plenty of historical examples - because the laws themselves do not exist outside of human comprehension (assuming no intelligent aliens came up with the same descriptions); they are not quantities hanging around in Platonic space waiting to be discovered; they are invented in the same way all descriptions are.
They don't just describe forces, they describe other natural phenomena.Sparhafoc said:As I explained, laws are there to describe forces. The forces are independent of the laws and are in no way contingent upon them, whereas it is exactly the opposite vice-versa. I would explain it as misidentifying the map for the terrain.
These are theories, not laws. How about Newton's laws of motion? And further data showing that the set of observations is incomplete doesn't change the laws themselves, just our understanding of them.Sparhafoc said:The most frequently cited examples of well established laws being shown wrong is of Newton's law of gravitation or of Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment but there are plenty of examples of laws changing based on further data showing that the set of observations (of the forces) were incomplete, and therefore the descriptive statement (the law) was incomplete or wrong. Early laws of gravitation break down at the sub-atomic level, for example, and are incomplete even in the middle world we inhabit which is why, in part, Einstein's relativity superseded Newton's; Mendel's law doesn't operate when genes on the same chromosome are located close to one another.
Laws of science are not constructed like the rules of a sport game.Sparhafoc said:Within the paradigm you've employed, laws are 'human' whereas the forces and phenomena are 'super-human'.
Myrtonos said:No, I did give an example of a religion without a God. Even Buddhism is founded on a belief in a superhuman order, in that case the law of karma.
Myrtonos said:Nope, our understanding improves. They are not invented in the way that the laws of a sport game are.
Myrtonos said:They don't just describe forces, they describe other natural phenomena.
Myrtonos said:These are theories, not laws.
Newton's law of universal gravitation states that every particle attracts every other particle in the universe with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.[note 1] This is a general physical law derived from empirical observations by what Isaac Newton called inductive reasoning.[1] It is a part of classical mechanics and was formulated in Newton's work Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica ("the Principia"), first published on 5 July 1686. When Newton's book was presented in 1686 to the Royal Society, Robert Hooke made a claim that Newton had obtained the inverse square law from him.
The Law of Independent Assortment states that alleles for separate traits are passed independently of one another.[6] That is, the biological selection of an allele for one trait has nothing to do with the selection of an allele for any other trait.
Myrtonos said:How about Newton's laws of motion? And further data showing that the set of observations is incomplete doesn't change the laws themselves, just our understanding of them.
Myrtonos said:Laws of science are not constructed like the rules of a sport game.
Myrtonos said:If you can think of any religion not founded on belief in a superhuman order, then how come the Olympic games are not a religion?
I thought all Buddhists believed in karma. But Buddhism is one of those religions that maintains that the order governing the world is a product of natural laws, not of the wills or whims of any deities. Buddhism is founded on a belief in the law of karma, that is the four noble truths and the eight-fold path, yes, a superhuman legitimacy of all rules, rituals and ceremonies.Sparhafoc said:Except, of course, you can be a Buddhist without believing in karma, and karma could anyway be seen within your paradigm of 'human' rather than 'super-human'.-
See just below.Sparhafoc said:It's the law that changes to accommodate our improved understanding, not the force.
So according to you, neither are superhuman. But surely you must admit there are very objective reasons for believing then, in other words, physical laws do have a superhuman legitimacy.Sparhafoc said:Naturally, laws are not invented in the same way as the laws of sports are because the laws of a sport or any game are wholly arbitrary and contrived in the absence of anything external (aside from physical restrictions, of course), whereas laws are descriptions of natural forces and phenomena and so are obligated to correspond to something external which arbitrates the validity of that law.
But the reasons for believing are indeed in the Platonic space waiting to be discovered. Humans cannot legitimately change these laws, unless an existing theory is falsified by observation and/or experiment, any changes would mean they do longer fully describe the observed natural forces and phenomena.Sparhafoc said:Our understanding of them is exactly what a scientific law is. Laws, as I've explained, do not sit around in Platonic space waiting to be discovered. Laws, as I've explained, are formulations to describe the relationship between 2 quantities.
It may depend on what that sense of the word is.Sparhafoc said:Are you under the impression that scientific laws are synonymous with laws in the system of rules sense of the word?
Indeed, each Olympic sport has many rules and rights, and the Olympic games has many rituals, but it is not founded on a belief in a superhuman legitimacy of any of those laws, rights or rituals.Sparhafoc said:Well, my argument doesn't entail the Olympic Games being a religion, so I can't really reply to that.
But anything that could count as a religion must be able to bring together different human groups, at least human groups that follow a common religion.Nesslig20 said:It doesn't really matter what definition you use, as long as it is at least related to the things that are commonly accepted as a religion and as long as it is not so broad such that it becomes useless, like defining religion in such a way that hobbies and your interests (like being interested in palaeontology) can be considered a religion.
One thing that is common to them all is that they are all founded on a belief in an order that is not signed or legislated by any flesh-and-blood beings, or even machines, and consist of a code of behavioral ethics founded on that belief.Nesslig20 said:I do the same way that Aron does. Take everything that is pretty much universally accepted as a religion and listing the common characters that are observed among them. Each one characteristics might be found in isolation to something else, like dogmatic beliefs in political ideologies, but it doesn't count as religion until each of these characters are present at the same time.
While most religions do include beliefs of the supernatural, note that supernatural means outside of nature. The Buddhist law of karma is not outside of nature.Nesslig20 said:My usage of the word "religion" is:
A doctrine that consisting of:.
1) A dogma of a faith-based belief system, including beliefs of the supernatural (not always including deities), especially a belief in the immortal soul and the after-life, or at the very least, in some aspect of the "self" that survives the death of the physical body in some way.
2) A code of behavioural ethics, including a set of mandatory beliefs. The adherence (or non-adherence) of this very often determines the fate of the immortal "self" after death. (Examples: People who adhere to the christian/islamic doctrine go to heaven while those who don't go to hell. A buddhist's goal in life is to reach Nirvana and break the cycle of death and rebirth. Exceptions include things like "Sheol" which Hebrews believes is the place where everyone goes, regardless of their behaviour or beliefs in life).
3) Folklore and mythology, which are intended for various purposes: Explaining the origin and the state of existence (creation myths), often chronologically followed by a compilation of historical, legendary and/or mythical events; but these don't have to be taken literally (as actual history) and are often only taught to teach morals or life lessons.
4) Associated rituals, traditions and ceremonies: Such as marriage, prayer to and worship of deities (if present), annual celebrations and festivals, etc.
Together, these 4 elements are a major aspect of (or is itself) the world view of religious devotees.
And rules that Buddhists see as beyond challenge are rules against any acts that necessarily increase craving for things like power, pleasure and wealth.