We are the Universe.

[Asrahn]

Hey fellas, hope this would be the right section, because in all honesty I am not sure what the hell to call it.

Short story is that I've been having a huge argument with a guy on youtube, (target video found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxCFa8YmbQ&feature=email , fellas name is swingerproductions) where he continuously claims that because we are "part" of the universe, whenever we think, the "universe" thinks. He summed his reasoning in 8 points, displayed below, of why he is right, and why everyone who thought of us being "in" the universe is wrong.

I won't prove a religious god/creator but I can prove a higher consciousness which is one step closer to a definition of god and needs to be addressed by any Atheist:

a), The universe is the totality of everything there is.
b) We are part of the universe woven from it's very fabric.
c) Therefore whatever we do, it is actually the universe that is doing that thing (through laws of physics, quatum mechanics etc)
d) Therefore when we think, it is actually the universe that is thinking.
e) Therefore the Universe is conscious in as much as we are conscious.
f) But there are 6 billion humans and countless other conscious entities on this planet, plus any other, conscious entities there may be in the universe as a whole.
g) Therefore the universe is simultaneously experiencing the feelings, thoughts and consciousness of every living entity simultaneously,
h) This is patently at a higher level of consciousness than a single conscious entity such as ourselves.

IE: The universe is conscious, at a higher level than us.

He claims that his, quote, "argument is logically deduced using pure reason." and that if I find a flaw, then it would be "great.." otherwise I would "have to absorb this into your standpoint as an Atheist". And if I don't then I am "guilty of dogma like the theists."

I've naturally called him on his bullshit many a time, spending a few hours bantering yesterday, and when I came back today he had kept ranting for what seemed like half the bloody night. I went down to responding to him that all he had done was twist the word "universe" to better fit his philosophy. From my point of view, it's all damned wordplay on his part, which he somehow draws what I consider a very much theistic or otherwise supernatural (philosophical?) conclusion from. I have a hard time placing what his damned theory would fall into category wise, but it seems the regular "present proof" does not work on him. He has evidently "presented proof in the form of logical deduction", something that he claimed is "acceptable in every scientific circle!".

For me, this is a nutter, but I am simply too young and inexperienced to tackle him it seems. I don't know enough.


Going back to me mead, shoot me down, or tell me what you think people.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I won't prove a religious god/creator but I can prove a higher consciousness which is one step closer to a definition of god and needs to be addressed by any Atheist:

a), The universe is the totality of everything there is.
b) We are part of the universe woven from it's very fabric.
c) Therefore whatever we do, it is actually the universe that is doing that thing (through laws of physics, quatum mechanics etc)
d) Therefore when we think, it is actually the universe that is thinking.
e) Therefore the Universe is conscious in as much as we are conscious.
f) But there are 6 billion humans and countless other conscious entities on this planet, plus any other, conscious entities there may be in the universe as a whole.
g) Therefore the universe is simultaneously experiencing the feelings, thoughts and consciousness of every living entity simultaneously,
h) This is patently at a higher level of consciousness than a single conscious entity such as ourselves.

Consciousness is not about having feelings but knowing that you are having feelings. It's about AWARENESS. If he can prove in any way that the universe is self-aware or has free will in any way, this kind of consideration would be worthwhile. Otherwise it's just semantics and can cause as much misunderstanding as understanding. My neighborhood has a consciousness! My city has a consciousness! A pack of dogs has a consciousness!

We can group anything and call it whatever, but unless that grouping has some sort of explanatory power its just a word game. In any case, it doesn't really matter: there is a sense in which you could consider the group of all conscious entities and consider their interactions as a sort higher order consciousness. It poses no danger to atheistic beliefs - as such a thing is clearly fully Natural and something any of us could believe in if we wanted and still call ourselves atheists.

 

[theatheistguy]

I think he may have misunderstood Carl Sagan when he said, "We are star stuff which has taken its destiny into its own hands."

 

[Sando]

What a load of bullshit!

a), The universe is the totality of everything there is.

Kinda correct at least.

b) We are part of the universe woven from it's very fabric.

Part of the universe, yes. Woven from it's very fabric? Well... if you stretch it.

c) Therefore whatever we do, it is actually the universe that is doing that thing (through laws of physics, quatum mechanics etc)

No, it's a part of the universe that does something. My actions have no connection whatsoever with some hydrogen in Alpha Centauri. If he claims they have, he needs to show some evidence of that. The laws of physics don't connect us in any way he is implying.

d) Therefore when we think, it is actually the universe that is thinking.

Then show proof that the universe has a collective mind. Also, define what a mind is.

e) Therefore the Universe is conscious in as much as we are conscious.

Again, show that the universe has a consciousness and that we are somehow connected to it.

f) But there are 6 billion humans and countless other conscious entities on this planet, plus any other, conscious entities there may be in the universe as a whole.

Yes, how would this matter? It's just an appeal to emotion.

g) Therefore the universe is simultaneously experiencing the feelings, thoughts and consciousness of every living entity simultaneously,

Again, he's shown no proof of this.

h) This is patently at a higher level of consciousness than a single conscious entity such as ourselves.

Even if the aforementioned points wouldn't be as stupid as they are, this wouldn't in any way make that thing a god. It would just make that mind allknowing (not even that, it would just know more). I still haven't heard of any deity with just that attribute... the closest would actually be Odin, so I guess we should start worshipping him.


Edit: That was a waste of time. I could've just said "He has not shown that the universe has a conscious mind and that we are connected to it". Why do I keep doing this?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Scale it back, way back, and start again.

There's me. I'm conscious.

There's you. For the sake of argument we'll assume that you're conscious as well.

Put us in a car together. There are two conscious beings in the car. The car is not conscious, and never becomes conscious, even though we are in the car.

Put us on a planet together. There are two conscious beings on the planet. The planet is not conscious, and never becomes conscious, even though we are on the planet.

Put us in a universe together... do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Asrahn]

Thanks a bunch for the answers fellas. Posted three replies to the guy right before I created this topic, and one of them went something like this:

swingerproductions, essentially what I mean is that I think your entire reasoning is a game of words. Wouldn't it be possible to claim that "Earth" means every single being, everything, physics and whatnot, on the planet; so when we, who are part of the planet think, the planet thinks as well?

You can apply, the same to anything really, as long as it is large enough to host thinking beings. I am no more "part" of the universe than I am "part" of my house or my town.

If you guys want, I can keep you posted. If not, I'll just take it from here :>

 

[Josan]

If you define the universe to include us, then yes. Technicly the universe is "thinking". But simply the way I could state that "My family plays tennis". While it is true that the family plays tennis, because members of the family plays. There is no entity named "Family" that is doing the playing, now is it?

 

[Sando]

If you define the universe to include us, then yes. Technicly the universe is "thinking". But simply the way I could state that "My family plays tennis". While it is true that the family plays tennis, because members of the family plays. There is no entity named "Family" that is doing the playing, now is it?

Yes, you could say that, but only in loose terms. If you'd form an argument around it anything but "a part of the universe is thinking" would be simply wrong.

 

[Aught3]

If I'm charitable I can follow most of the argument, but all he has said is that there are parts of the universe that are conscious therefore the universe has parts that are conscious. The last assumption that the universe, as a whole, displays multiple consciousness that therefore makes it conscious on a higher level - doesn't make sense. There is nothing special about the multiple consciousness of the universe that just means many parts of the universe are conscious not that the universe as a whole is super-conscious.

Also, posit a universe identical to ours but with only one conscious entity, the super-consciousness of the universe would disappear.

Btw, did he argue that I am god? (or at least part of the great entity?)

 

[Sando]

If I'm charitable I can follow most of the argument, but all he has said is that there are parts of the universe that are conscious therefore the universe has parts that are conscious. The last assumption that the universe, as a whole, displays multiple consciousness that therefore makes it conscious on a higher level - doesn't make sense. There is nothing special about the multiple consciousness of the universe that just means many parts of the universe are conscious not that the universe as a whole is super-conscious.

Also, posit a universe identical to ours but with only one conscious entity, the super-consciousness of the universe would disappear.

Btw, did he argue that I am god? (or at least part of the great entity?)

Yeah, he kinda did According to his argument god is actually depending on consciousness... so, if everyone would become christian (thus, ignorant) god would actually make himself less godlike. How ironic!

 

[Homunclus]

a), The universe is the totality of everything there is.
b) The earth is part of the universe woven from it's very fabric.
c) Therefore whatever the earth does, it is actually the universe that is doing that thing (through laws of physics, quatum mechanics etc)
d) Therefore when the earth revolves around the sun, it is actually the universe that is revolving around the sun.

I never thought heliocentrism was meant to be taken so literally :shock:

 

[Jotto999]

Scale it back, way back, and start again.

There's me. I'm conscious.

There's you. For the sake of argument we'll assume that you're conscious as well.

Put us in a car together. There are two conscious beings in the car. The car is not conscious, and never becomes conscious, even though we are in the car.

Put us on a planet together. There are two conscious beings on the planet. The planet is not conscious, and never becomes conscious, even though we are on the planet.

Put us in a universe together... do you see where I'm going with this?

Yep, I agree with Joe. Just because parts of the universe are conscious does not mean all of it is. The guy is just having a really big logic fail.

 

[JacobEvans]

I'm going with Sagan on this one.

 

[Asrahn]

"I am not indulging in wordplay. Neither have I altered the word 'universe' to fit my philosophy. The universe is what it is - i.e the sum total of everything that exists.. I find it troubling that you still think that you are 'in' the universe as though it is something that you can separate yourself from.."

His last post which he made sure to send in the form of a reply so that I would get it to my email. After this, it appears that he went back and deleted all his previous comments, as I obviously cannot find them no matter how hard I look.

Victory?

 

[GoodKat]

Part of the universe is conscious=the universe is conscious???

 

[theatheistguy]

I'm going with Sagan on this one.

Always a good choice.