Warmbier Parents claim torture

[Sparhafoc]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41409878

This is one of those perplexing stories... medical examinations claim there was no evidence of extensive torture and he died from brain damage, Warmbier's parents are now calling that false, saying he had extensive torture marks, and Trump's already in on that!?!?

This has a bad smell.



((edit: spelling))

 

[thenexttodie]

Re: Wamblier Parents claim torture

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41409878

This is one of those perplexing stories... medical examinations claim there was no evidence of extensive torture and he died from brain damage, Wamblier's parents are now calling that false, saying he had extensive torture marks, and Trump's already in on that!?!?

This has a bad smell.

Well it seems Kim Jong Un has already executed several hundreds of people and sometimes even entire families. We know the people in North Korea are subjected to extreme propaganda and human rights violations. Even countries that do not like the US, know this.

I am not sure what the bad smell is you are smelling? North Korea sends the US a nearly dead man who was sentenced to 17 years hard labor by NK for removing a propaganda sign. North Korea says the man is nearly dead because he contracted botulism. No evidence of botulism is found but instead there is evidence of brain damage due to oxygen deprivation.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Re: Wamblier Parents claim torture

Well it seems Kim Jong Un has already executed several hundreds of people and sometimes even entire families. We know the people in North Korea are subjected to extreme propaganda and human rights violations. Even countries that do not like the US, know this.

I am not sure what the bad smell is you are smelling? North Korea sends the US a nearly dead man who was sentenced to 17 years hard labor by NK for removing a propaganda sign. North Korea says the man is nearly dead because he contracted botulism. No evidence of botulism is found but instead there is evidence of brain damage due to oxygen deprivation.

You've not addressed the point, and simply added a lot of unnecessary fluff that bears no relevance to the topic.

I certainly haven't suggested that the kid's state wasn't caused by the N Korean authorities. His death was caused by them; no question about it.

The point you seem to have missed is that the medical experts who examined Warmbier made no notes about extensive torture - for example, his teeth:

The Cincinnati Enquirer said it had obtained a copy of a coroner's report on Otto Warmbier, based on an external examination, which revealed several small scars but nothing which indicated torture.

The paper quoted the Hamilton County coroner as saying Mr Warmbier's teeth were "natural and in good repair" and that he appeared to have died from brain damage caused by a lack of oxygen.

So the coroner says Warmbier's teeth were ok, but his parents say:

It "looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth".

Now, both of these cannot be true - they are mutually exclusive. Warmbier's teeth cannot both have been in good repair and look natural AND look like they were rearranged with pliers. There's no room for simple mistakes here.

Therein lies the bad smell.

Either i) the coroner and medical experts are lying.... and one has to consider why they would lie or ii) his parents are lying... and one has to consider why they would lie. Both have serious implications.

 

[thenexttodie]

Re: Wamblier Parents claim torture

I think it could be the parents and the coroner are being truthfull. it looks to me in the pictures I have seen of Warmbeir his teeth are perfeclty straight. Crooked teeth occur naturally. Some of my teeth are crooked and I am missing I tooth from a fight i was in 20 years ago.

I was just to the dentist for the fist time in many years because the disks in my jaw are dislocated (probably from another fight I was in) I was told that my teeth are in exellent condition.

Again, crooked teeth occur naturally
I assume they could also be made crooked by physical manipulation.

So I think it could be that Warmbiers' parents remember the perfectly straight teeth he had, and when the saw him after his imprisonment they noticed his teeth were not so straight anymore. The coroner, unaware of the perfect state of teeth Warmbeir once had, assumed his teeth were naturally a bit crooked.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Re: Wamblier Parents claim torture

I think it could be the parents and the coroner are being truthfull. it looks to me in the pictures I have seen of Warmbeir his teeth are perfeclty straight. Crooked teeth occur naturally. Some of my teeth are crooked and I am missing I tooth from a fight i was in 20 years ago.

I was just to the dentist for the fist time in many years because the disks in my jaw are dislocated (probably from another fight I was in) I was told that my teeth are in exellent condition.

Again, crooked teeth occur naturally
I assume they could also be made crooked by physical manipulation.

So I think it could be that Warmbiers' parents remember the perfectly straight teeth he had, and when the saw him after his imprisonment they noticed his teeth were not so straight anymore. The coroner, unaware of the perfect state of teeth Warmbeir once had, assumed his teeth were naturally a bit crooked.

And perhaps the Tooth Fairy's running a slightly more proactive tooth-collecting enterprise. And perhaps he sneezed violently. And perhaps....

Teeth rearranged with pliers =/= a bit crooked.

You realize that it would be evident if metal tools had been used on his teeth?

 

[thenexttodie]

Re: Wamblier Parents claim torture

And perhaps the Tooth Fairy's running a slightly more proactive tooth-collecting enterprise. And perhaps he sneezed violently. And perhaps....

Teeth rearranged with pliers =/= a bit crooked.

You realize that it would be evident if metal tools had been used on his teeth?

The use of a metal tool is not always necessary for teeth extraction. They could have used an octopus, for example.

 

[Tree]

No evidence of torture doesn't mean he wasn't tortured. Or beaten.

There are ways to torture people without leaving marks or permanent scars. Given what labor camps in NK are like, it's very likely he was either tortured or at least mistreated very badly. A healthy young man doesn't randomly end up in that condition.

 

[Sparhafoc]

No evidence of torture doesn't mean he wasn't tortured.

Did you know that there's an invisible dragon in my garage?

 

[Sparhafoc]

Sorry for continuing this in another post. I've got a 4 year old running about and completely failed to notice I'd submitted it rather than saving it as a draft!

However, it's many hours later and some people may have read it, so don't want to edit the old one...

No evidence of torture doesn't mean he wasn't tortured.

Did you know that there's an invisible dragon in my garage?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

...

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Truth, in the philosophical sense, doesn't exist as a quantum fluctuation tugged back and forth by subjective criteria like some kind of arbitrating tug-of-war. Have you read the articles cited as the entire point of discussion in this thread? There are claims being made that cannot co-exist. One claim is true, the other is false. Some fudging? Perhaps. But not on the central contentions.

Either he was tortured sufficiently to warrant the claim that there was apparent evidence of torture, and that his teeth had been extracted with tools... i.e. factual, empirical, subject-independent evidence of torture... or there wasn't apparent (even specialist detailed) evidence of torture as specifically discussed in the articles cited in this thread, and which this thread is explicitly about.

There are ways to torture people without leaving marks or permanent scars.

Which then wouldn't actually be evident to warrant the claims made by various people about him being tortured.

Again, please follow the argument here.

1) Claim: i systematic torture, ii "As we looked at him and tried to comfort him it looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/26/otto-warmbiers-parents-open-up-about-sons-torture-by-north-korea-are-terrorists.html

Father reports observations of evident systematic torture.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912636538156146688

The President of the USA tweets a confirmation of systematic torture.


2) Contradiction to claim - coroner report https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/28/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy-report.html

And https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/otto-warmbier-had-breathing-tube-n-korea-exam-shows-n805191

The coroner for Hamilton County, Ohio, Dr. Lakshmi Kode Sammarco, confirmed that the team looked hard for any evidence of torture, but could find nothing definitive. They even called in a forensic dentist.

"There was no evidence of trauma to the teeth," Sammarco told reporters. "We were surprised at that statement."

3) They can't both be true. There can't be absolutely no relevant notes about significant visible torture in a coroner's report. There can't be a scenario where a coroner's report fails to note the severe physical damage that would be caused by pulling someone's teeth out of their jaws.


For clarity - my interest is piqued here because this is a highly emotive topic, and there's a very clear contradiction of statements which are mutually exclusive.

There's a lot to this.

For example, Otto's parents were obviously under a lot of stress and emotional heartache at that time, and can hardly be expected to sit and rationally assess the situation. Their appearance on Fox there, regardless of anything else, can be explained in terms of parents heartbroken for the loss of their kid.

However, given the dramatic tension between the USA and North Korea, and given the fact that Trump uses Tweet for all policy positions; Trump's public reiteration of that specific point should be very concerning for anyone with their lights switched on.

Haven't we been here recently enough for people to notice?

There emphatically were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, until Iraq was conquered, and then well, there weren't any at all. With the last couple of months of escalation, I don't think this is something to nonchalantly ignore. We've got a 'friendly' administration playing nuclear brinkmanship games with someone we all consider to be an utterly deluded ignorant big man.

Do we never hold our leaders accountable to factual, empirical truths? Or are we such a self-subordinating species that we will always allow a powerful leader to emote the facts for us? If 'we' don't insist on the truth, who fucking will?

Or, of course, it could suggest we desperately need to work on an education system that produces professional coroners who could overlook obvious evidence of torture while explicitly looking for evidence of torture in relation to his death as they know perfectly well who the guy is?

Something IS fishy here. Please do not misunderstand. This is a terrible situation. I feel awful for the family and loved ones, and would obviously never bring this topic up in their company. This is also not about Trump, although it is obviously indicative of exactly the problem Trump represents, this thread is not a political criticism. My point is not even really about any people, let alone any specific ones. It's a fundamental logic thing.

The something that IS fishy here is that regardless of the what, where when and who: if reality is flexible enough that two mutually contradictory contentions can simultaneously both be true, then we might as well abandon all hope we who enter. Reality is forever indiscernable, truth, facts, reason, any suggestion of there being such things as 'coherent thoughts' all merely convenient illusion predicated on whatever satisfies some cosmic drama.

Of course, there's no real reason to assume that is the case. Either Otto was systematically tortured including having his teeth surgically removed and rearranged, or he wasn't. This is useful because it's binary.

To me, at least, while I would quite like the logical paradox here resolved, this thread is still mostly because I genuinely want to know the relevant fact about what caused Otto's death, and I think the truth here is important for every single person concerned, which in this case, is an awful lot of people. What I am talking about is not an emoted truth. It's not an aesthetic truth constructed from all one's biases and prejudices. Rather, an empirical truth - yes/no.

Even if this matters to no one else, to me it matters, and thus this thread to see whether we ever actually learn that particular truth.

 

[Tree]

I think I get your point, but this isn't about some invisible dragon in your garage.

His teeth may even be fine and his parents mistaken due to shock.

You are however asking me to give NK the benefit of the doubt and I won't. I don't trust them one bit.

Given the conditions in NK prisons, it is simple inductive reasoning that Warmbier was almost certainly tortured. Maybe nothing was done to his teeth, but also people don't randomly get deprived of oxygen long enough to become a vegetable if they're a healthy 22 year old. My guess is, they either waterboarded him hard or he got fed up of the guards torturing him so much he tried to drown himself and didn't succeed. Either way, they got away with murder and that's worse than torture.

 

[Sparhafoc]

You are however asking me to give NK the benefit of the doubt and I won't. I don't trust them one bit.

Fine, but as I already said:

What I am talking about is not an emoted truth.

I'm not really interested in the base prejudices that motivate people in place of thought. I am here to reason with people who employ rationality and inspect their own reasoning.

Given the conditions in NK prisons, it is simple inductive reasoning that Warmbier was almost certainly tortured.

I've addressed this.

You don't make something a fact by pretending it's a necessary result of something else in a barrage of bias.

Was he mistreated according to 'our' expected standards? Of course. Does this amount to torture? I don't know, and neither do you. You can have your own opinion, but you need to be aware that just because you like your opinion, it doesn't magically become a fact.

Regardless, it's still a red herring because I am talking about the type of torture that would actively result in his death - i.e causal relationship. I am talking about the type of torture that would leave indisputable evidence. You can see this by reading my posts.

Maybe nothing was done to his teeth, but also people don't randomly get deprived of oxygen long enough to become a vegetable if they're a healthy 22 year old.

Factually, of course, some people do. That's why 22 year olds can drop dead of a heart attack, a brain embolism, or any of the numerous afflictions that plague all living organisms, including humans of all ages.

There's a huge gulf between being mistreated, worked hard, poorly fed, and suffering crippling depression about one's chances of ever being free, and active torture with the intent to cause significant physical harm.

You may not care about the truth and you may prefer whatever conforms to your presupposed prejudice, but personally, I am actually only interested in what's true, not what I'd like to be true.

My guess is, they either waterboarded him hard or he got fed up of the guards torturing him so much he tried to drown himself and didn't succeed. Either way, they got away with murder and that's worse than torture.

I find it bizarre to the point that it beggars belief that you think, in the absolute absence of any relevant knowledge or evidence, that you can be the judge, jury, and executioner. Personally, I think you are a symptom of exactly what's going terribly wrong with the supposed information age, and I am utterly perplexed why you would actively elect to join a forum specifically motivated by reason when you so thoroughly reject its application.

I would suggest that your guess is not worth a wank. Don't take that personally - I think anyone's guess is not worth a wank when they are not in possession of any of the requisite facts.

The issue I think is more crucial here is how people like you can be led around by their noses by yanking on your emotionally based prejudices.

What is truth but an inconvenience to you, Tree? It just gets in the way of a bloody satisfying yarn.

 

[Tree]

I am being very reasonable.

Otto Warmbier was in their custody, which already has a poor track record. He went in healthy and came out a vegetable.

The NKs had a chance to explain themselves, they lied about every detail. They said he had botulism. He did not have botulism. And they constantly lie and say their prisons are humane despite evidence to the contrary from everyone who escaped.

NK had a chance to immediately repatriate him when he fell ill and tell the truth about his medical condition. They didn't.


Now let's say I was an investigator and I found loads of child porn on someone's computer. I give him a chance to explain himself.

He says "I must have downloaded a thumbnail by accident".

I point out, no, it wasn't just one image, it wasn't a thumbnail, it's 50 full images hidden in a folder with a misleading name. I point out the folder is purposely created and that's not where an automatic browsing download would go to. (where image files go when you access sites)

He says he's never even known about those images. I point out they were accessed recently.

He says "I don't even like children".

I bring forth witnesses that can testify he's attracted to kids.

I ask, can you think of anyone who might have put them there?

He lies about who else visited his home or gives no answer.

Now at this point, it's perfectly rational to conclude I'm being taken for an idiot by someone who just wants to cover his crimes. This would be the pattern of a predator, not some innocent guy who made a mistake.



And here's the thing. Maybe it wasn't torture. Maybe it just so happened that one of the US prisoners they had, a 22 year old, just coincidentally happened to have a rare birth defect that would have killed him anyway.

Now if you run someone over with a car that's probably manslaughter. But you're going to have a very difficult case proving that if you then proceed to not call an ambulance, not call the police, chop up the body, dump it in the river and then lie every step of the investigation. Suddenly it starts to look like cold blooded murder.

 

[IBSpify]

I would argue that we have no right to criticize the prisons of another country while we ignore the abuses in our own.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I'm right, look over there, irrelevant thought-experiments, I'm right.

Tree, you don't know what reason is.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I would argue that we have no right to criticize the prisons of another country while we ignore the abuses in our own.

Aye, it is certainly a tad ironic to start talking about waterboarding as an example of the heinous activities which most likely go on in that most terrible of nations... when the entire concept of waterboarding exists only in the Western public's mind due to the Western 'good guy' governments using it against their prisoners.

I have to assume that once the moral high ground is lost, one's vision is also thereby restricted.

 

[Tree]

I would argue that we have no right to criticize the prisons of another country while we ignore the abuses in our own.

Sure we can. Our prisons are nowhere near as fucked up and we actually give people a fair trial.

Even the "evidence" that convicted Warmbier would have been laughed out of court almost anywhere else.

 

[Tree]

I'm right, look over there, irrelevant thought-experiments, I'm right.

Tree, you don't know what reason is.

Not irrelevant. You're naive and you trust malicious degenerates too easily.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I'm right, look over there, irrelevant thought-experiments, I'm right.

Tree, you don't know what reason is.

Not irrelevant. You're naive and you trust malicious degenerates too easily.

And you emote at everything that passes under your nose, which is why you think you can formulate such a specific criticism of me even while not knowing me from Adam.

Why did you join a forum about reason, Tree? Do you think you employ reason?

Incidentally, who are these malicious degenerates I trust? Are you talking about the coroner? :lol:

 

[Sparhafoc]

I would argue that we have no right to criticize the prisons of another country while we ignore the abuses in our own.

Sure we can. Our prisons are nowhere near as fucked up and we actually give people a fair trial.

Even the "evidence" that convicted Warmbier would have been laughed out of court almost anywhere else.

I haz assertion.

 

[IBSpify]

I would argue that we have no right to criticize the prisons of another country while we ignore the abuses in our own.

Sure we can. Our prisons are nowhere near as fucked up and we actually give people a fair trial.

Even the "evidence" that convicted Warmbier would have been laughed out of court almost anywhere else.

Do i Need to bring up the stories of what happens in Guantanamo and the fact that most of the people there past and present have never received a trial at all fair or otherwise?

Or shall i bring up what happens in some jails inside this country where a pregnant woman goes into labor and the guards refuse to get her medical attention so the child dies, or the man who died of thirst in that same prison because the guards shut off his water. Does the man who ran that prison face any charges? No, in fact our president calls him a "great guy" while promoted his book.