VyckRo on MSS

[Visaki]

I though some of you might... "enjoy" isn't really the right word here though. Watch at your own discression and know that if you enjoy that, you might be a machocist.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Actually, MSS's attitude was horrible this time. They interrupted VyckRo, they didn't give him time to put forth his argument and they cut him off too early. They have never done that to ANY caller before, and they have had callers MUCH worse than VyckRo (Eric Hovind, Sye etc.) and yet they gave them time to put forth their arguments. (and then went on a series of rebuttals and counter-rebuttals)

So what happened this time?

And what has this accomplished other than reinforce VyckRo's persecution complex?

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

VyckRo's point was painfully stupid. What a waste of time.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Actually, MSS's attitude was horrible this time. They interrupted VyckRo, they didn't give him time to put forth his argument and they cut him off too early. They have never done that to ANY caller before, and they have had callers MUCH worse than VyckRo (Eric Hovind, Sye etc.) and yet they gave them time to put forth their arguments. (and then went on a series of rebuttals and counter-rebuttals)

So what happened this time?

And what has this accomplished other than reinforce VyckRo's persecution complex?

I do not watch the Magic Sandwich Show often, but from what I saw, they treated him just as they treat most of the people that call into that show. They are always interrupting the caller and each other and they always cut people off when they are not making a point. DPRJones gave the option of keeping VyckRo to the listeners of the show; they voted him off because they did not find what he was saying interesting. The different between this and when Hovind and Sye were on, is that Hovind and Sye were guests on the Magic Sandwich Show, not just random callers. The reason they were allowed to make their full arguments is that they had an hour or so of show to fill. If VyckRo was half as famous as Hovind or Sye, then he might be invited to the show and be given a whole show to discuss his nutty ideas.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I'm neutral on the de-sacralization argument. (I'm currently looking into some of the material VyckRo uses to see if there's a merit to this argument.)

Now I think VyckRo did kinda pwn himself in several points, for example he admitted that to really develop modern science you had to, and I quote, "expel God from the Universe". Yes, VyckRo, that is exactly what atheists are doing, not only do we expel God from the Universe, we reject his existence in or "outside" the Universe, which means that under our worldview you truly are 100% free to find out how things work. We work on the assumption that there's no magic at all, not even occasional miracles. Which means that it doesn't even matter what role Christianity played, it's not needed anymore.

It's funny that he uses "expel God from the Universe", he practically admits that many religions (pagan beliefs) are a hindrance to modern science.

Secondly, it's clear that evangelical Christians have not completely "expelled God from the Universe" even to this day. Their unfounded assumptions that that Bible is literally true prevents them from considering Evolution, Big Bang etc. in fact they have an entire propaganda industry to attack them. This is the case for some Muslims as well, in fact one of the books VyckRo recommends says that Islamic civilization did not absorb parts of Greek culture that contradicted Islam, despite the "Golden Age".


Anyway, I understand that he's not as famous as Hovind/Sye, but still, this could have been an opportunity to set the record straight on many things and they cut him off instead. Pity. He might not be famous, but his views aren't fringe at all and should be discussed.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

It is strange argument to say that "God is outside the universe". The universe is by definition everything that exists, being outside the "universe" means that it is not part of the groups of things that exist, therefore it means that it doesn't exist. I.e. "God is outside the universe" is just another way of saying "god doesn't exist", because that is what it really means.

 

[Visaki]

Anyway, I understand that he's not as famous as Hovind/Sye, but still, this could have been an opportunity to set the record straight on many things and they cut him off instead. Pity. He might not be famous, but his views aren't fringe at all and should be discussed.

Problem with Vyck is that he has a three page scrip from which he reads from (apparently). In a call-in show format like MSS it's very boring having to listen ten minutes untill Vyck comes to his point. Also as pointed by MSS and AE on occasion you really need to point out things that are contested and deal with them as they are said, because you don't really want to listen Vyck ramble 9.5 minutes after he's made a mistake that can bring his whole hypothesis down. He could just make his claim and give a short proof-of-consept behind it.

Oh, and I disagree about Master_Ghost_Knights claim that the universe is by defenition everything that exists. I'd say it's defining properties to the universe that you can't back up with evidence.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

Oh, and I disagree about Master_Ghost_Knights claim that the universe is by defenition everything that exists. I'd say it's defining properties to the universe that you can't back up with evidence.

I don't care that you disagree, it is right. That is what the universe mean, everything that exists. What did you think the universe meant?

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Okay, my question is, how do you get to a "desacralized" Universe by reading the Bible?

I will put forth this example that VyckRo can respond to:

Exodus 4:11
Who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

John 9:1-3
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So what causes people to be deaf or blind? It is natural phenomena (birth defects and such), the Bible doesn't say that, God is directly involved in this for his own reasons (such as giving Jesus the opportunity to show his magical powers). You can't have it both ways. The Bible presents a God that is heavily involved in controlling his Universe.

(Not only that, but my more religious relatives are constantly going on about how bad things in life are the result of sin or how earthquakes are God being angry with us etc. Where's the desacralization VyckRo?)

So, if Christianity did indeed "desacralize" the Universe, it probably was due to the more enlightened Christian scholars cherry-picking the verses that seemed to reinforce that view or by some strange "interpretations". I can't really explain it any other way given how scientifically crippled people who take the Bible literally (i.e. evangelical creationists) are.