The great vaccination scare

[Blog of Reason]

Discussion thread for the blog entry "The great vaccination scare" by Inferno.

Permalink: http://blog.leagueofreason.org.uk/science/the-great-vaccination-scare/

 

[NFLJACK]

Just a quick observation and a couple of comments.

There is an article above your post about logical fallacies wherein one of those fallacies is "Post hoc ergo propter hoc." Did you correlate the rate of certain diseases being eradicated or almost eradicated with the introduction of a vaccine without scientific proof?

You said not vaccinating for religious reasons is fucked up, and that people claiming personal liberty do so out of idiocy. While I agree that doing anything for religion is fucked up, one's personal reasons, or one's personal liberty, should not be viewed that way unless you know what that personal reason is, and then, it's still probably not for anyone to judge.

I believe carrying a gun is the best way for me to protect myself against an attacker. However if someone doesn't carry a gun, for whatever reason, should I blame him for NOT killing the attacker, who attacked him, before the attacker attacked me?

I don't believe that an HIV positive person MUST tell you they have HIV, or any other STD, before having sex even though some states have made it a felony not to do so. Some people might not know if they are or aren't. I assume everyone has an STD, and, if I'm going to engage in a sexual act with him or her, take the precautions. You're not responsible for giving me the clap. You didn't even know you had it.

The point is each person is responsible for his own health and well-being.

There are other reasons for not being vaccinated. There are pre-existing medical conditions that contraindicate many vaccinations. And after what Bayer Pharmaceuticals did to those hemophiliacs in France, along with the revolving doors between congress and the executives at the FDA and drug companies, why trust these greedy pharma-whores?

I'm not sure of this, but wasn't Dr. Wakefield's assertion that it was the mercury in the vaccines causing autism and not the MMR itself?

I asks that you not see this issue as black and white. That's all.

 

[Inferno]

Just a quick observation and a couple of comments.

I'm glad you're taking the time and effort to do so. Welcome to the forum.

There is an article above your post about logical fallacies wherein one of those fallacies is "Post hoc ergo propter hoc." Did you correlate the rate of certain diseases being eradicated or almost eradicated with the introduction of a vaccine without scientific proof?

No. I specifically stated that I could do this with any vaccination. I cited the Rubella-vaccination as one example out of many. Which one would you like me to look at? But don't say "all", my time is precious. Give me one example where you feel that it won't hold up and I will gladly analyse it.
I hardly ever do anything without having a mountain of proof and evidence. Can you say the same?

You said not vaccinating for religious reasons is fucked up, and that people claiming personal liberty do so out of idiocy. While I agree that doing anything for religion is fucked up, one's personal reasons, or one's personal liberty, should not be viewed that way unless you know what that personal reason is, and then, it's still probably not for anyone to judge.

Does your personal liberty supersede my right to live, my right to be healthy? That's a question for another topic, but I would strongly argue against it. We need to sacrifice some liberties (the liberty to do stupid things that harm other people, for example) when and if we live in a society. If you live on your own in some cabin in the woods... Go ahead, don't vaccinate yourself.

Rest assured: Your death or health is not my concern... but mine and my friends is! And I will call anyone an idiot or say that their reasons are "fucked up" if and only if they infringe my rights to stay healthy and live.

I believe carrying a gun is the best way for me to protect myself against an attacker. However if someone doesn't carry a gun, for whatever reason, should I blame him for NOT killing the attacker, who attacked him, before the attacker attacked me?

Guns are a separate issue.
Yet even here, the evidence is in: Carrying guns is not safer than not carrying guns... quite the contrary, actually.

But your example does not make any sense, it does not fit.
Someone not inoculating themselves is a direct threat to society, albeit not as big a threat as some nut with a gun. Someone not carrying a gun is not a threat to anyone. How does your example apply?

I don't believe that an HIV positive person MUST tell you they have HIV, or any other STD, before having sex even though some states have made it a felony not to do so. Some people might not know if they are or aren't. I assume everyone has an STD, and, if I'm going to engage in a sexual act with him or her, take the precautions. You're not responsible for giving me the clap. You didn't even know you had it.

Ignorance is not an excuse, stupidity is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
I would very much hope that any sexual partner of mine would tell me about an STD, after all it directly affects me.
I don't care if you have HIV, but don't you dare give it to me.
How is that difficult to understand?

The point is each person is responsible for his own health and well-being.

...and we are also responsible for the health and well-being of those around us. Your view on life is very limiting, damaging, damning. If I did not care about the health and well-being of others, I might as well actively kill others, there's little difference. (With the above HIV-example there literally isn't.)

There are other reasons for not being vaccinated. There are pre-existing medical conditions that contraindicate many vaccinations. And after what Bayer Pharmaceuticals did to those hemophiliacs in France, along with the revolving doors between congress and the executives at the FDA and drug companies, why trust these greedy pharma-whores?

Extremely rare medical conditions notwithstanding, there's no other reason not to get vaccinated.
As for your distrust of the pharma-industry: I've written a blog-post on it here. It's much shorter than the two books it's based on, but it offers a good, short introduction. (And will hopefully get people to read the books.)

That being said, a flat-out rejection of vaccinations simply because you distrust the pharma-industry is stupid. Weigh the evidence (or get the Cochrane-collaboration to weigh it for you) and then get vaccinated based on the results, not on your gut instinct.

I'm not sure of this, but wasn't Dr. Wakefield's assertion that it was the mercury in the vaccines causing autism and not the MMR itself?

No. The claim was that remainders of the MMR-vaccine were found in the gut of 8 out of 12 autistic children.
Even then, Wakefield "merely" suggested the vaccination be given in its three independent stages, not in the triple-form we currently have it.

I asks that you not see this issue as black and white. That's all.

I don't. I weigh the evidence and report on it. If you wish to challenge me on any issue, challenge away. I will back up everything I've said with evidence. (The moral issues are, of course, subject to reason and debate, not evidence per se.) Can you do the same?

Thank you for taking the time to read the post and commenting, it's much appreciated.

 

[NFLJACK]

I wasn't up for debating. I just had a few thoughts I was asking you to consider. You have, and I'm satisfied that you are going to defend your position.

 

[Inferno]

As an update: Australopithecus linked me to this DailyMail article. Should be fun to see what happens when Wakefield releases his new paper.

Retracted. This article was from 2003! Thanks Austra and TYH for not letting me know...

 

[Inferno]

Another update: Tallguywrites has a nice (cartoon) summary of Dr. Wakefield's background here. (Written: 2010! I really should keep up-to-date on these people...) Some of this I did not know and it seems well researched. I read up on Brian Green (one of the journalists who exposed Wakefield) and there seem to be some large chunks I could have added in my post.

In any case, here's the main part of the cartoon I want to emphasize:

 

[Vivre]

Hello,

I came across a video that I find a suitable addition to your topic. Giving a bit of insight on the mode of action of the measles and an urgently talk on the MMR scandal and the dilemma caring parents may have to face.


JimtheEvo - Vaccinations, Lies and MMR. Measles, A History of Infection #15

 

[Inferno]

As always, I want to keep my topics up to date:
Sauce

 

[Inferno]

Another follow-up: Ben Goldacre over at Bad Science has an excellent article about how vaccine-scares act within local cultural boundaries. It's well-worth the 5min of your life.

EDIT: Moar pics