Roe v Wade

[ldmitruk]

In the end all we get is a dead baby

So much concern for the unborn child and none for the mother. Why am I not surprised.

 

[*SD*]

In the end all we get is a dead baby

Again (keep lying and I'll keep calling you out, you'll quit before I will) no, LZ, you don't get a "dead baby" - but you already know that because it's been pointed out.... hmmm.... shall we hazard a guess at 2,482 times now?

You lie about this one more time and you're going to end up on the naughty step. I don't want to do that, so please don't force my hand.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Report finds that majority of country has no abortion access

A new report by the Guttmacher Institute details how the number of clinics that provide abortion care has decreased significantly since the U.S. Supreme Court repealed Roe v. Wade in June.

 

[Mythtaken]

Well that would be because so many state governments immediately triggered laws banning abortions, sometimes without exception. So naturally, those clinics became illegal and had to close down. Meanwhile no one is talking about what to do with all those unwanted babies...

Thankfully, most of us live in more civilized parts of the world, where people matter more than fake principles.

 

[mechtheist]

Most of the forced-birth arguments are based on the idea that a fetus or even zygote is an actual separate person. This is absurd in many ways, the only justification they have for that position will involve something like there's a soul or it being one of god's children. If that isn't correct, I'd like to hear what other arguments are out there that aren't ludicrous and otherwise laughable. What kind of mindset does it take to think there's a person there without a brain? What's most infuriating about all of the arguments involving whether it's a person or not is that there simply isn't an objectively correct answer to that question and there never will be. The only way for there to be one is for there to be some kind of authority that could declare what the objective definitions were, that's why the forced-birthers can claim to know the answer, their god told them so. A few simple observations make it obvious the idea a new separate human being is there from the moment of conception is an outlier position--no census counts a pregnant woman as 2 people, no pregnant woman has to buy two tickets for an event or plane trip, no one is charged with 2 counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman, etc. That last one is no longer true but that's due to recent maneuvering from the forced-birth mfers.

To make it clear, passing laws that treat a fetus as if it's a separate person is a violation of the 1st Amend. Establishment clause. The 6 in SCOTUS violated their oaths of office in Dobb, as has been pointed out, the decision is full of BS, bad law and bad logic, not to mention dishonest claims. Alito actually admitted to this in an extraordinary claim in a speech shortly after Dobbs was handed down. In a event hosted by the cardinals in Italy, he said

"All I’m going to say is that, ultimately, if we are going to win the battle to protect religious freedom in an increasingly secular society, we will need more than positive law,"

FFS, a Supreme Court justice sees himself battling secularism, which means battling the 1st Amendment. I don't know how it could be any plainer than that. Plus, they always talk about religious freedom when they're stripping the rights away from folks who don't believe the same BS as their religion requires them to believe, that is extremely disgusting, obnoxious, fucked up, and grossly dishonest to try that nonsense, and it's, again, a violation of the 1st Amend.

And last but certainly not least, the real issue is that no one has any business forcing as woman to suffer having a parasite feeding off of them, it's massively resource-hungry and it's quite risky with the possibility of life-threatening complications fairly high. These forced-birth laws are not any different than the state forcing someone to give blood or an organ to save another's life without consent and no one would want that in the law.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

The only way for there to be one is for there to be some kind of authority that could declare what the objective definitions were, that's why the forced-birthers can claim to know the answer, their god told them so.

Yet that answer is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

 

[Mythtaken]

Actually, the answer is found in the bible: Exodus 21:22

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.


23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

So killing the woman results in the death penalty. Killing the fetus, nets you a fine. Seems pretty clear the unborn are not considered people in the bible.

And for a little more context, earlier we have:

15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.


16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.


17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

All of these acts deserve the death penalty. Killing a fetus, still a fine.

 

[mechtheist]

Yet that answer is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Well, they're going to start yammering about souls and god's children as mentioned. And, while it's not an answer to that question, a much more interesting tidbit of info and something the forced birthers never acknowledge is that god provides abortion services for men if they don't think they're the father, it's for men of course since women are property. From FFRF site :

The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

The insane vehemence of the forced-birthers is ridiculous considering they're clearly not well versed in their bibles. This passage should be shoved in their faces and no one should ever take anything they say seriously again.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

The insane vehemence of the forced-birthers is ridiculous considering they're clearly not well versed in their bibles.

Are you saying that Christians do not know what is in their Bible!? Say it is not so... /s

This passage should be shoved in their faces and no one should ever take anything they say seriously again.

Sadly, even if you shoved this and the one pointed out by Mythtaken in their faces, it would do nothing to change anything. For that to work, they need to feel shame, and the Regressive Right is lacking that in spades. This is an emotional argument for them. Facts and logic be damned. What is actually needed is sensible people getting out and voting.

 

[mechtheist]

Are you saying that Christians do not know what is in their Bible!? Say it is not so... /s



Sadly, even if you shoved this and the one pointed out by Mythtaken in their faces, it would do nothing to change anything. For that to work, they need to feel shame, and the Regressive Right is lacking that in spades. This is an emotional argument for them. Facts and logic be damned. What is actually needed is sensible people getting out and voting.

The shame you're talking about, like shame for being caught lying or being a massive hypocrite, no they're all unconcerned with that, but there's a different sort of shame that can be much more powerful and that's the shame from merciless ridicule and that's what we need to inflict as much as we can.

 

[Mythtaken]

the shame from merciless ridicule and that's what we need to inflict as much as we can.

That will never happen. You're talking about rational thought in the face of nonsense. True believers can rationalize anything through the power of "interpretation."

The bible shows god committed genocide? No, no, no. The pure evil of those people (yes, apparently their children and unborn babies too) forced god to destroy them in his loving mercy.

The bible says slavery is okay? Oh, you misunderstand, my child. That isn't real slavery, it's indentured service to pay debts. The god-fearing folk were kind enough to take those poor people into their homes, look after them, and give their lives meaning.

 

[mechtheist]

That will never happen.

Have faith my child. [in the power of ridicule] Consistent, ubiquitous, and sustained, and from enough people, especially if from lots of former friends, etc, it could be enough. New converts to reality would likely be listened to more than the usual sources. But I ain't holding my breath that's for sure.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

The shame you're talking about, like shame for being caught lying or being a massive hypocrite, no they're all unconcerned with that, but there's a different sort of shame that can be much more powerful and that's the shame from merciless ridicule and that's what we need to inflict as much as we can.

Again, this will not work since Christianity powers the Regressive Right, and Christianity already has a fail-safe against this. Matthew 5:11 clearly states that Christians will be persecuted for their faith. They will only see ridicule as persecution, which will strengthen their conviction. Sadly, nothing but stripping them of their power will fix this.

 

[Mythtaken]

Stripping them of their tax status will really fix them. From what I understand of religion in the US, this should have been done already to a number of them. I believe there is a law or legal stipulation that churches cannot endorse any politician or party, if they want to keep their status. Yet quite a few of them were openly supporting the MAGA crowd and Trump.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

You are talking about the Johnson Amendment. Enforcing the Johnson Amendment could be a start, but first, you would need to find someone willing to take on the wrath of the Theocrats in the US. The Republicans will not do it because that would directly attack their base, and the Democrats will not do it because they are a spineless organization that does not stand for anything.

 

[Mythtaken]

Wait. Are you telling me that politicians won't stand up for principles?

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

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