Resurrection, hallucinations or lies?
Just following from this conversation that whent out of the original topic
http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15478&start=520
I was just establishing the historical fact that some of the early followers of Christ “saw something” that was interpreted as the risen Jesus …….do you concede this historical fact?
No testimony of Alien adduction is analogous to what happened 2000 years ago, thee testimonies are clearly lies or hallucinations (depending on the specific case)
Yes but they didn’t die in the name of a lie that they themselves invented, they died in the name of something that they believed was true, ether because they had an experience or because they where brainwashed.
The pint is:
To say that people like Peter, John, Paul, James etc. invented a promoted the lie of the resurrection would implied that they abandoned their families and comfortable live style just to be persecuted, treated as criminals and die as martyrs in the name a of a lie that they themselves invented. This if true would be an extraordinary and unique event.
Or to say that all of these early Christians had the same clear and unambiguous hallucinations would also be an extraordinary and unique event.
So it doesn’t matter if you believe in the resurrection, hallucinations, or in lies you are committed to grant that an extraordinary and unique event occurred.
That is true, if you show an example of a Muslim miracle analogous (in terms of evidence, explanatory power and explanatory scope) to the resurrection I would have to accept that such a miracle probably did occurred.
We know (from external sources) that at least some of the early Christians died as martyrs
Just following from this conversation that whent out of the original topic
http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15478&start=520
leroy wrote:
There are witnesses of people who saw Jesus (or what they thought to be Jesus) after his dead, this is a historical fact
Bango Skank wrote:
Saw or thought to saw? There is a big difference.
I was just establishing the historical fact that some of the early followers of Christ “saw something” that was interpreted as the risen Jesus …….do you concede this historical fact?
eroy wrote:
We are talking about unambiguous experiences where people touched Jesus, ate with him, talked to him etc.
This is very different form watching a distant and unclear light in the sky, and interpreting it as a UFO
Bango Skank wrote:
We also have people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and later let go.
No testimony of Alien adduction is analogous to what happened 2000 years ago, thee testimonies are clearly lies or hallucinations (depending on the specific case)
Bango Skank wrote:
EDIT: And all those suicide bombers who have claimed of having religious experiences
Yes but they didn’t die in the name of a lie that they themselves invented, they died in the name of something that they believed was true, ether because they had an experience or because they where brainwashed.
The pint is:
To say that people like Peter, John, Paul, James etc. invented a promoted the lie of the resurrection would implied that they abandoned their families and comfortable live style just to be persecuted, treated as criminals and die as martyrs in the name a of a lie that they themselves invented. This if true would be an extraordinary and unique event.
Or to say that all of these early Christians had the same clear and unambiguous hallucinations would also be an extraordinary and unique event.
So it doesn’t matter if you believe in the resurrection, hallucinations, or in lies you are committed to grant that an extraordinary and unique event occurred.
Bango Skank wrote:
Religious people tend to dismiss the so called miracles if they happen outside their religion / sect. Talking about extreme bias...
That is true, if you show an example of a Muslim miracle analogous (in terms of evidence, explanatory power and explanatory scope) to the resurrection I would have to accept that such a miracle probably did occurred.
nsBango Skank wrote:
Btw, we don't know what happened to the 12 disciples after Jesus death, so it cannot be said that they were willing to die. Those death stories are much later inventio
We know (from external sources) that at least some of the early Christians died as martyrs