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Religion poisons everything, how does it 'poison' you?

doodpersoon

New Member
arg-fallbackName="doodpersoon"/>
In the first chapter of the Christopher Hitchens book God is not great Hitchens writes that he would have no problem with religion, and leave religions alone if that they in turn leave me alone.


This got me thinking, in what ways does religion influences me and my daily activities.
Then I thought some more. Then I made a pizza and Thought how religion influences other people in other places.

I am curious, how is your daily live effective where you live? And how do you deal with it?

For the the biggest problems are
  • There are no stores open on sunday!
    I live in the Dutch bible belt with (offcourse) a lot of Christians in the city council. the only store open is a gas station (because hey, we need to drive to church on Sunday). this sucks for 2 reasons. 1 : If I need something I need to drive to a big city or wait a day. 2 : Most of the youth here works in supermarkets. Who would want to earn a extra buck on Sunday. Even the public transit is halved on Sunday!
  • they try to take away my music.
    Like most people I have a soft spot for (what is for me) good music. One of these styles is metal (in it's broadest form). A yearly returning problem is the heavy metal festival 'Elsrock' outside a small town. the organisers of the event fight every year for a metal festival for the community. But most of the time the city won't give a permit without a court order (the festival is around the same time as a piratefest inside the town which the same noise as Elsrock.)
    And this is just one instance. If you walk in the town with lets say an Iron maiden or Black Sabbath shirt some evangelicals will surely try to convert you.
  • the bells on sunday morning.
    How come the local pub needs 2 thick doors to make sure nobody hears the sounds coming from inside but the church 300 meters from my house gets to wake my up on a Sunday at 8'o clock?

And there are many more things religion (or it's followers) do around here which annoys me(some store owners give discounts to other Christians)



And in what ways does religion involve your day to day live? And how do you deal with it?
 
arg-fallbackName="Prolescum"/>
Like most people, I live near a church. I also live near a pub. I'm neither affected by Christians or drunks.

Religion doesn't poison everything, it doesn't have big enough teeth to even draw blood from me.
 
arg-fallbackName="Anachronous Rex"/>
I think you misunderstand his point:
Hitchens said:
"Religion attacks us in our deepest integrity by saying we wouldn't be able to make a moral decision without it, and that a supernatural dictatorship is our only hope. That makes us all into serfs. And chess and Tantric sex and Chinese food are pointless if you must enjoy them as a serf.''

That's how religion poisons everything. Church-bells (or drums in my neighborhood), though annoying, are trivial by comparison.
 
arg-fallbackName="Story"/>
Only that I feel that I can't tell any one I know that I am atheist, because the punishment for leaving Islam is death and I'm really not sure if a particular someone I know will actually attempt that.

I grew up in such a secluded fundamentalist home, I'm surprised I'm even able to think.
 
arg-fallbackName="Jotto999"/>
Well, the stupid thought processes that go with it and anything else I find superstitious or idiotic makes me dislike people. The closest thing to poisoning me is simply that it hurts relationships, and that's nothing unique to religion, it's just one of those things I have a hard time witnessing without speaking my mind or antagonizing. Other than that, not much comes to mind.
Story said:
Only that I feel that I can't tell any one I know that I am atheist, because the punishment for leaving Islam is death and I'm really not sure if a particular someone I know will actually attempt that.

I grew up in such a secluded fundamentalist home, I'm surprised I'm even able to think.
That is some pretty steep shit. That makes me feel very fortunate to live somewhere more open minded, where I'll tell almost anyone I'm an atheist and most people will either not say much about it or won't care, it's pretty safe. I admire you for managing nicely in such a mental void, I'm not sure if I would've.
 
arg-fallbackName="televator"/>
Jotto999 said:
Well, the stupid thought processes that go with it and anything else I find superstitious or idiotic makes me dislike people. The closest thing to poisoning me is simply that it hurts relationships, and that's nothing unique to religion, it's just one of those things I have a hard time witnessing without speaking my mind or antagonizing. Other than that, not much comes to mind.
Story said:
Only that I feel that I can't tell any one I know that I am atheist, because the punishment for leaving Islam is death and I'm really not sure if a particular someone I know will actually attempt that.

I grew up in such a secluded fundamentalist home, I'm surprised I'm even able to think.
That is some pretty steep shit. That makes me feel very fortunate to live somewhere more open minded, where I'll tell almost anyone I'm an atheist and most people will either not say much about it or won't care, it's pretty safe. I admire you for managing nicely in such a mental void, I'm not sure if I would've.

That's true. Many people in my family are devout Catholics. Some of them, I wont dare to be honest with. My Grandmother who raised me for the first 2 years of my life has a heart condition. The truth could literally kill her. Plus as a child I was directly subjected to religious indoctrination. I was also physically punished for not learning certain bible verses before my first communion.

Also, as a taxpayer, I do feel that those tax exempt churches everywhere do affect me monetarily.
 
arg-fallbackName="godisabullet"/>
My son goes to a public school here in Australia. "Religious Studies" is a part of his first year curriculum and as you can imagine its not really "Religious Studies" - you know, kids learning about all the different religions, their history and culture - it's just scripture class re-branded. It is run and taught basically by a group of local religious people that have nothing to do with education apart from this religious class.

I asked my son if he really wanted to be in the class (as I know you can write a note to get your kid out of the class) and he told me that all of his friends were doing it so he didn't want to do the only alternative which was sitting in the library doing extra English and Maths work. Can't say I blame him.

This is really annoying and I think damaging. I guess it doesn't poison my life THAT much but anyway...

I rang the school to see if they had any other alternatives to my son sitting in the library by himself doing extra class work and the flat answer was.... no.

I guess my point is that they just HAVE to have their finger in every pie and they get around the whole separation of church and state (school) thing by saying that you can opt out.

Probably not exactly what you mean but anyway...
 
arg-fallbackName="televator"/>
godisabullet said:
My son goes to a public school here in Australia. "Religious Studies" is a part of his first year curriculum and as you can imagine its not really "Religious Studies" - you know, kids learning about all the different religions, their history and culture - it's just scripture class re-branded. It is run and taught basically by a group of local religious people that have nothing to do with education apart from this religious class.

I asked my son if he really wanted to be in the class (as I know you can write a note to get your kid out of the class) and he told me that all of his friends were doing it so he didn't want to do the only alternative which was sitting in the library doing extra English and Maths work. Can't say I blame him.

This is really annoying and I think damaging. I guess it doesn't poison my life THAT much but anyway...

I rang the school to see if they had any other alternatives to my son sitting in the library by himself doing extra class work and the flat answer was.... no.

I guess my point is that they just HAVE to have their finger in every pie and they get around the whole separation of church and state (school) thing by saying that you can opt out.

Probably not exactly what you mean but anyway...

Is he taught about several different religions in a critical manner or is he given this material without it being made clear that's it's just a belief?
 
arg-fallbackName="doodpersoon"/>
To clarify, I used the term poison because of the subtitle of Hitchens's book that made me think how it affects the daily life.

Not in the 'poison that destroys you from the inside' poison.


I remember one other instance where religion interfered with my daily life.
A few years ago I met a girl in the train to a metal concert (The black metal band Dimmu borgir was playing). she was nice and a.... Ah well you know the story. Turned out she still lived at home and her dad was a local reverend with a hatred for metal music. the girl wasn't allowed to get to gigs or go out Friday or Saturday after daddy met me. Oh and to make it even worse. She wasn't allowed to see me.
 
arg-fallbackName="godisabullet"/>
When I called the school to ask this the answer was quite simple that it is not about the historical or cultural aspects of a variety of religions, it's basically scripture. Learning about the Bible and the Christian god.
 
arg-fallbackName="godisabullet"/>
Probably a more relevant story is one I was told just last weekend.

My son has a friend he likes to visit and she had a party last weekend. I went to the parents house and was chatting to them. The mother told me about he daughter who had just married a guy. They really like the guy - he has a steady job and is level headed and obviously loves their daughter. Problem is that the guy is religious. Apparently he wasn't that bad at first but he's become more and more intense about it over the last few years. Now his church has said that he (and his new wife - the daughter) should have minimal contact with the family because they aren't (as) religious (as the son in law and now daughter too).

Now, the parents are great people. They are easy going and open minded. They love their kids and have been really good to my son over the years.

The parents are now really depressed having seemingly lost their daughter to religion. I feel terrible for them but there's nothing they or I or anyone can do.

It would be unthinkable for any other organisation or institution to even think about doing this kind of thing but apparently it's ok for a religious group to do it.

Poison!
 
arg-fallbackName="Rivius"/>
As you say that, Godisabullet, that's precisely what I interpret from the phrase "religion poisons everything". While I never read that book by Hitchens, myself, I intend to do it one day when I'm actually living in a country that has a bookstore and doesn't take months for me to receive ordered books (don't ask).


Think about what a religion does to a person's mindset:

It gives him strange ideas about morality. How many people would immediately think killing people is permissible just because God said so, but wouldn't do it otherwise? It turns one's morality into something less virtuous and something more slavish. It's a slap in the face of morality. It makes you merely obedient, not moral. I find that to be a profoundly terrifying thing to see people just accept.

Secondly, it poisons the idea of even our trust for our fellow man. How many priests and pastors and televangelists go on to tell you that you can only trust in God and that your neighbour is full of iniquity. Granted, we shouldn't just blindly trust anyone. But my example goes far. I see videos where someone speaks of world unity, and people immediately go into a frenzy! "Oh one world! The bible said this would happen! The end is near! Resist it! Resist it!". I can only imagine, that if religion still had this far-reaching an influence in the day that we hypothetically find some means of world peace and unity, religion is just going to come along and fuck it up.
You can also say it doesn't give man a very good esteem of himself.

On that note, it poisons the idea and basis of love. How could a God with all his power and benevolence allow us to suffer so much pain and anguish, some of it even being done by himself and then say "he loves us". How can they say this about a God who'd punish someone eternally for a finite crime? What is love then, if he is its definition?

It also gives you a very fucked up perspective of death. Ever see a religious person laugh or shake their head at someone who's afraid of death? Where do you get the fucking gall to do this? You believe you're going to keep living after you die, asshole. You're scared of death too. It's a primitive and infantile fear that's been present in human kind far before history even started being recorded. We need to get rid of it, it's childish. Once we have a better concept of what death is, and its significance, we can all live our lives a little more wisely.

Also, I think it was Stephen Fry who said it best

". The glory - anything - we take credit for what is great about man and we take blame for what is dreadful about man, we neither grovel or apologise at the feet of a god, or are so infantile as to project the idea that we once had a father as human beings and we therefore should have a divine one too. We have to grow up, which is partly what Christopher was saying."
- Stephen Fry

(5:30)


We need to stop being man-children. We need to grow up.



On a less profound note, notice the obsession that the Abrahamic religions have with sex? A lot of that influence needs to go too. Sex is natural and not some disgusting, filthy act.
 
arg-fallbackName="godisabullet"/>
Rivius said:
As you say that, Godisabullet, that's precisely what I interpret from the phrase "religion poisons everything". While I never read that book by Hitchens, myself, I intend to do it one day when I'm actually living in a country that has a bookstore and doesn't take months for me to receive ordered books (don't ask).


Think about what a religion does to a person's mindset:

It gives him strange ideas about morality. How many people would immediately think killing people is permissible just because God said so, but wouldn't do it otherwise? It turns one's morality into something less virtuous and something more slavish. It's a slap in the face of morality. It makes you merely obedient, not moral. I find that to be a profoundly terrifying thing to see people just accept.

Secondly, it poisons the idea of even our trust for our fellow man. How many priests and pastors and televangelists go on to tell you that you can only trust in God and that your neighbour is full of iniquity. Granted, we shouldn't just blindly trust anyone. But my example goes far. I see videos where someone speaks of world unity, and people immediately go into a frenzy! "Oh one world! The bible said this would happen! The end is near! Resist it! Resist it!". I can only imagine, that if religion still had this far-reaching an influence in the day that we hypothetically find some means of world peace and unity, religion is just going to come along and fuck it up.
You can also say it doesn't give man a very good esteem of himself.

On that note, it poisons the idea and basis of love. How could a God with all his power and benevolence allow us to suffer so much pain and anguish, some of it even being done by himself and then say "he loves us". How can they say this about a God who'd punish someone eternally for a finite crime? What is love then, if he is its definition?

It also gives you a very fucked up perspective of death. Ever see a religious person laugh or shake their head at someone who's afraid of death? Where do you get the fucking gall to do this? You believe you're going to keep living after you die, asshole. You're scared of death too. It's a primitive and infantile fear that's been present in human kind far before history even started being recorded. We need to get rid of it, it's childish. Once we have a better concept of what death is, and its significance, we can all live our lives a little more wisely.



We need to stop being man-children. We need to grow up.



On a less profound note, notice the obsession that the Abrahamic religions have with sex? A lot of that influence needs to go too. Sex is natural and not some disgusting, filthy act.

I absolutely agree and thanks for the reply.

I was discussing the idea of god with the mother and we agreed (well mostly..) that 1. if there is a god it should be a personal god and it should not have enough influence to break up families and 2. if there was a god, why would it want to separate families like that?

Ahh Stephen Fry. He's got such a way with words. It's a joy to listen to him. Thanks for that :)
 
arg-fallbackName="televator"/>
godisabullet said:
When I called the school to ask this the answer was quite simple that it is not about the historical or cultural aspects of a variety of religions, it's basically scripture. Learning about the Bible and the Christian god.

Well that sounds like....church Sunday school. If your kid wants to stay with his friends maybe it's up to you to inform him of alternative views? Not that it's my place to tell you what to do.
godisabullet said:
Probably a more relevant story is one I was told just last weekend.

My son has a friend he likes to visit and she had a party last weekend. I went to the parents house and was chatting to them. The mother told me about he daughter who had just married a guy. They really like the guy - he has a steady job and is level headed and obviously loves their daughter. Problem is that the guy is religious. Apparently he wasn't that bad at first but he's become more and more intense about it over the last few years. Now his church has said that he (and his new wife - the daughter) should have minimal contact with the family because they aren't (as) religious (as the son in law and now daughter too).

Now, the parents are great people. They are easy going and open minded. They love their kids and have been really good to my son over the years.

The parents are now really depressed having seemingly lost their daughter to religion. I feel terrible for them but there's nothing they or I or anyone can do.

It would be unthinkable for any other organisation or institution to even think about doing this kind of thing but apparently it's ok for a religious group to do it.

Poison!

What a terrible thing! This is why scrutiny of religion is necessary. Things of this sort need to be discussed openly.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nyna"/>
I may have given up on the idea on God but the rest of my family sure hasn't. Every now and then my mother calls me a heathen. Jokingly of course...I think....

I'm also learning Arabic: A language with speakers heavily involved in their religion. There is no simple 'hello'. It's always "God smiles upon you" or "Thanks be to God" as a greeting. The irony is inescapable. But it's such a pretty language.
 
arg-fallbackName="godisabullet"/>
televator said:
Well that sounds like....church Sunday school. If your kid wants to stay with his friends maybe it's up to you to inform him of alternative views? Not that it's my place to tell you what to do.

What a terrible thing! This is why scrutiny of religion is necessary. Things of this sort need to be discussed openly.

Well actually I ended up convincing one of his friends parents to give him a note too so now they both have a buddy to hang out with in the library. It's stupid though - jumping through hoops like that for religion.

Oh and I got his friend to ask the teacher the "if god can do anything can he make a boulder so big that even he cant move it" question. My son didnt want to ask it but he did and well.... "yes god can move it" was apparently the answer!


And yes it's disgraceful. I feel so bad for the parents but there's really nothing anyone can do. I'd love to speak to the guy and tell him how selfish and inconsiderate he and the church are being but obviously it's not my place.
 
arg-fallbackName="Story"/>
Nyna said:
I'm also learning Arabic: A language with speakers heavily involved in their religion. There is no simple 'hello'. It's always "God smiles upon you" or "Thanks be to God" as a greeting. The irony is inescapable. But it's such a pretty language.

Not really... none of the greetings I know have the god word in there at all.

Salam Wa Alaikum - Peace be unto you.
Wa Alaikum Salam - And peace be unto you too
Ma'asalamah - Go in Peace
Ahlan Wa Sahlan - Welcome

There are no greetings that invoke the name of god in Arabic. The only thing I can think you're talking about is the following usual discourse that people have when meeting:

Question: Kaif Al Haal - How are you
Answer: Alhamdulilah - Praise be to God (I'm good)

Saying "Praise Be To God" in Arabic when someone says "How are you" is the equivalent of saying "I'm doing fine". Which is really weird lol, because I actually know an Arab that thinks that "Alhamdulilah" means "I'm good" and I had to explain to her the real meaning of the words.

That being said, it's not a greeting, but Arabic conversation is almost always riddled with praises to god, not the greetings though. If you sit behind them on the bus it literally sounds like this.

Guy1: "My son's going to a really good school now"
Guy2: "Praise be to god!"
Guy1: "My wife is a lot better now too"
Guy2: "That's good! Glory be to god"
Guy1: "Although my sister is really ill now"
Guy2: "Awwwww.... Trust in god."
Guy1: "And my grandmother died"
Guy2: "THERE IS NO POWER BUT THE POWER OF GOD!"

No exaggeration there at all.

It's interesting, because the person doesn't have to be particularly religious to do so. They could even be Christian Arabs. This is all of course in Arabic and so they say "Allah" instead of "God" and yes, the Christian Arabs say "Allah" too.
 
arg-fallbackName="AdmiralPeacock"/>
Pretty much all my public life and a good deal of my personal life is poisoned by religion... it's simple really, religious people tend to vote, side and agree with other religious people. Consequently I have to deal with their moral imperatives, their traditions and their special exemptions.
 
arg-fallbackName="Duvelthehobbit666"/>
Nyna said:
I may have given up on the idea on God but the rest of my family sure hasn't. Every now and then my mother calls me a heathen. Jokingly of course...I think....

I'm also learning Arabic: A language with speakers heavily involved in their religion. There is no simple 'hello'. It's always "God smiles upon you" or "Thanks be to God" as a greeting. The irony is inescapable. But it's such a pretty language.

In Bavaria they also have greetings invoking god. A greeting common there is Gruss Gott, or greet god. This is like saying hello there. Funny how that is.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mapp"/>
Religion forces me to be on my guard at attempts to impose theocracy. So I donate and maintain involve with the ACLU and the Texas Freethought convention. Fortunately, most religionists in my area are not theocrats. Other than that, I live by the rule of Thomas Jefferson. "Whether my neighbor believes in one god or a thousand it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket."
 
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