Pseudoscience, your significant other, and you

[frieden]

So I've recently entered into a relationship with a girl who believes in pseudoscience. She's not religious, thank god, but she entertains the concept of "mother earth" as a thing. What exactly that entails, I don't know; it seems harmless enough. She also uses and believes in alternative medicine. She believes in naturopathic and homeopathic remedies and sees an acupucturist and a chiropractor on occasion. Now, as far as I know she isn't taking this stuff for anything other than pain and stress relief, but she believes in their abilities to promote "wellness" and 'quality of life". I'd like to think she knows better than to eschew conventional medicine for alt.medicine for more serious conditions, but I'm not so sure. Recently she advised her best friend that her yeast infection was caused by candida something something and recommended her to a naturopath who put her on some weird no-yeast, no-sugar diet. Her friend suffered under this thing for about a week, until she saw a conventional doctor who prescribed her a single pill which took care of everything.

Now, I like this girl a lot. Aside from this, she has a lot of other stuff going for her. I'm just hoping for some advice on, as a skeptic, how to deal with this aspect of her personality, potential pitfalls, what things to let go and where to put my foot down, etc.

 

[borrofburi]

See I could stand a religious girlfriend far before I could stand an alternative medicine girlfriend.

 

[jrparri]

Hello frieden, it's nice to meet you!

My beloved wife of 3 years (gf for 4) has a very open-minded view of the world. This is to her credit, but it can get out of hand. She (was) convinced that homeopathy and acupuncture saved her life, even though she was also undergoing physical therapy at the time. She comes from a family very well informed about native medicines that grew around her home (she is from South America) which is very cool. She knows the usages and dosages of hundreds of tropical plants. Arnica, for example, is a potent anti-inflammatory, but is dangerous in high doses. South Americans know this, but I've seen bottles and creams of the stuff here marketed in a "more is better" sort of way. She facepalmed over that all the time, but didn't apply the same critical eye to other facets of healthcare.

My advice: first, don't be a "skeptic" - be "curious" and play dumb when it's convenient. Ask questions. Most people who are into homeopathy, for example, have no idea what it is. Ask her what it is and how it works. When she returns with an answer, continue to gently problematize it - "but how does the water know what to remember and what not to? What about tap water? "

Sometimes she got mad, and sometimes she didn't. The trick is, never get defensive - just let it ride. Plant some questions like seeds and water them once in a while.

The homeopathy was nipped in the bud finally when she bought me some homeopathic cold remedy. I decided to re-enact James Randi's demonstration the next day, and took the entire bottle right in front of her*. She was panicky until I showed her the ingredients, what the dilution levels meant, and explained that not only does homeopathic concoctions have no side effects, they have no effects whatsoever! I also said, "Yes of course my cold will get better in a few days! What's the alternative? Did you think I'd die of pneumonia if not treated?"

*disclaimer: WARNING! I officially recommend that you don't do this. But if you must (and not sue me) make sure there are no active ingredients in it... this one was just crap and vitamin C, but many of them are "fake homeopathic drugs" that actually have significant amounts of one herb or another. I saw one at the store that claimed to be homeopathic, but the ingredients listed 150mg of willow bark. Scarfing that would be like eating a third of a bottle of aspirin. Research the product before you do this.

The last nail in the coffin was when her chiropractor got her knee-deep in Scientology. I started sending her links about Scientology's vengeful litigiousness, brutal "therapy", tricky bait-and-switch philosophy, and then (after a couple weeks of this) brought up Xenu and we sat down and watched the Southpark episode together, so we could laugh about it. Basically I tried to use the internet to inoculate her, and it worked very well.

Now she researches everything on the internet, and gets both sides. She recognizes things like bias, deliberate vagueness, and red flags like sciencey-sounding things that another search or two will debunk.

However, after two years of effort in this direction, I still haven't gotten her to accept the word skeptic. "I am NOT a skeptic! I just don't believe things right away without asking questions!" :lol:

Oh well one step at a time.

 

[Niocan]

The earth is just as alive as a cell is, it's just that we tend to anthropomorphize everything and assume that "alive" means observable choices being made...

In regards to the girl, if you have any urge to "convert" her in one way or another that's infringing upon Divine Law (Choice, for you people who hate symbolist terms) and it'll ruin the potential relationship you might share together..

 

[Giliell]

Recently she advised her best friend that her yeast infection was caused by candida something something and recommended her to a naturopath who put her on some weird no-yeast, no-sugar diet. Her friend suffered under this thing for about a week, until she saw a conventional doctor who prescribed her a single pill which took care of everything.

Sorry to tell you, but she was right to some extend. Candida is a very common yeast-like fungus. And it is boosted if the woman eats a lot of sweets, that's why most gyns will tell you to abstain from sweets. She got it wrong at the point when she promoted as a cure what should be done as a precaution.

But generally, try to change her using baby-steps. If you tell her: It's all BS, she'll become defensive. And research things yourself. She probably has some knowledge about "natural" and household remedies and quite a lot of them have a sound scientific foundation. Try to sort the crap out from the good stuff.

 

[scalyblue]

The earth is just as alive as a cell is, it's just that we tend to anthropomorphize everything and assume that "alive" means observable choices being made...

In regards to the girl, if you have any urge to "convert" her in one way or another that's infringing upon Divine Law (Choice, for you people who hate symbolist terms) and it'll ruin the potential relationship you might share together..

If the Earth is as alive as a cell is, what's the earth's nucleus? What about its cell membrane or mitochondria? What does it metabolize? What are its waste products? The entire biosphere of the earth can be, and has been in the past, completely obliterated and the earth will still be there so long as there is enough stuff to accreate into a ball shaped rock.

Saying that choice is a divine law implies that divinity exists, which is unprovable and quite silly if you ask me.

I'm sure he doesn't have an urge to convert her, just for her to stop being stupid. There's a difference, one is a belief system that somebody is taught since they were a child, another is being stupid.

 

[frieden]

Hey, thanks everyone for your insights.

I take issue with the language of conversion, because it implies that I'm trying to convince her of yet another worldview. In actual fact, I'd be deconverting her from her belief in pseudoscience to a non-belief in pseudoscience, a view which takes into account the total lack of supporting evidence, just like her view on everything else she doesn't believe in. And I wouldn't presume to convince her of this by force of personality, authority or just plain force; that would be violating her free will. No, I intend to present her the evidence and reason through it with her, in the kind of honest dialogue in which any civilized person should be willing to participate constructively.

Yes, my girlfriend has irrational, possibly deeply held views on pseudo-scientific medicine. Does it then follow that she has a right to immunity from having these views discussed honestly? No. Aside from her health being at stake, relationships depend on trust and communication. Even if this doesn't get resolved, the record has to show that I at least tried.

And yes I care strongly for my girlfriend's well being. Does follow, then, that my treatment of the subject is necessarily tainted with irrationality and dogmatism? No. I'll let my arguments and methods stand on their own merit, thanks.

Thanks for the advice on taking the subtle approach to those who gave it; i'll definitely take it under consideration. And congratulations, jrparri, on your marriage. I hope you and your wife share many happy and healthy years to come

One concern that remains with me, though, is that while I do know that while pseudo-medicine works, at best, only as well as placebos, as long as (as far as I know) she's only using the stuff for pain relief (which acupuncture might be said to actually be helpful, albeit not for the reasons traditionally given), maybe it's not worth it to dispel these myths for her?

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

 

[RichardMNixon]

The earth is just as alive as a cell is, it's just that we tend to anthropomorphize everything and assume that "alive" means observable choices being made...
.

No, the Earth is just as alive as a petri dish full of cells is.