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While yes we are defining orange, that orange exists regardless of us no? And it would have the properties it possesses regardless of us, no?
RedYellow said:The atoms and arrangement of the orange would exist without us, but not the identity. To the universe, there is no real point at which the orange begins or ends, it's part of an ongoing continuum of causal events. Is the tree distinct from the orange? Is the ground from which the tree grew, or the seed that came from the previous tree distinct from that orange? It wouldn't exist without either of those things, it is made from the very interaction of those things.
But along comes the human brain, which, has developed a language of identity and purpose. Does the tree know what the orange is for? Of course not. The growth of the orange is just a behavior of the tree. We observe that behavior and separate it into compartments, little collections of facts, as well as recognizing the natural relationships between those facts. It's only our ability to see it from the outside, that gives it identity. The universe is a process, it can't identify itself except through our eyes, precisely because we are separating it from ourselves.
Thus, nothing we can observe about the universe can be said to be literally prescriptive, only descriptive. Math is a philosophy of the basic behaviors of reality when broken down into imagined measurements. Same goes for logic. Logic doesn't dictate the behavior of reality, it observes that behavior and interprets it in ways that are relevant only to conscious observation.