he_who_is_nobody
Well-Known Member
Happy New Year to everyone!
Happy New Year, and welcome back.
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Happy New Year to everyone!
Happy belated New Years, Dragan Glas.Greetings,
Happy New Year to everyone!
Question 1As has been pointed out by others, it's not for atheists to prove a negative - that a deity doesn't exist - but for believers to prove that one does.
Well religions all over the world are Abrahamic. Over half the population of the world. Some non-abrahamic religions don't even have texts. And as far a I know, texts are not a requirement of any Abrahamic religion. In otherwords, they existed before the texts did. That should be obvious to you.There are two types of deities - theistic (interactive) and deistic (non-interactive)
Religions all over the world make the same claims:
1. Our deities exist;
2. Our deities created everything - including people;
3. Our deities wrote/inspired our religious texts;
4. All other deities, religions, and religious texts are false;
5. Therefore, our religion is the One True Religion.
I think I do remember an article by Richard Carrier on the probability of multiple gods. I don't remember being impressed by it. Are you saying you agree with him?In relation to 1 and 2 above, Richard Carrier did a article on probability theory and the likelihood that a deity exists - he shows that it's more probable that there are a infinite number of deities rather than just one (polytheism is more likely than monotheism0. The same argument works for universes - the multiverse is more likely than a universe.
At one time it was thought that a rainbow was a spirit, until Newton showed that it was just diffracted light.
Similarly, if we found naturalistic explanations for every phenomenon, this would show that there's no need for a theistic deity, since it would negate the need for any intervention by said deity..
A deistic deity, on the other hand, is a different matter. Since such a deity only creates a naturalistic universe - no souls, life-after-death, heaven, hell, etc - we would only find naturalistic explanations for everything, which would not rule out a deistic deity.
As *SD* noted, many concepts of God can be dismissed due to internal contradictions or logical incoherence. This means that the viable concepts of God have to be logical, which results in a logical contradiction (particularly relevant to MrBatman's topic).
P1: God created everything - including the laws of logic;
P2: God's existence is contingent (dependent) on the laws of logic:
C: Therefore, the laws of logic pre-exist God.
Which raises the obvious question:
Whence the laws of logic?
It remains for the believer to do the following - as I've posted elsewhere in this forum:
1 Prove that it's possible for any deity to exist;
2 Having proven 1 above, prove that the deity in which you believe exists to the exclusion of all others;
3 Having proven 1 and 2 above, prove that the deity in which you believe created and/or has anything to do with physical reality;
4 Having proven 1, 2, and 3 above, prove that the deity in which you believe has anything to do with your religious texts (and religion).
kindest regards,
James
I have actually missed you guys too. I am at the moment trying to get through some bad health problems and a drug addiction that is killing me. You probably wont see me again for a while but I wish you all the very best. There have been some interesting and special lines of thought.LZ has gone rather quiet. Not sure why, but I hope he returns to the thread at some point, it was just getting interesting.
You assume a deity exists - we don't. It's for you to provide evidence that it does.Happy belated New Years, Dragan Glas.
Question 1
If God exists, would you agree that the sentiments atheists commonly hold, concerning how one should correctly go about proving His existience, are not particularly usefull?
Most religions have texts, not just the monotheistic ones. And these were predated by oral traditions.Well religions all over the world are Abrahamic. Over half the population of the world. Some non-abrahamic religions don't even have texts. And as far a I know, texts are not a requirement of any Abrahamic religion. In otherwords, they existed before the texts did. That should be obvious to you.
I think you are just kinda trying to try fit things into an atheist paradigm.
Yes, many are more probable than one, and one is more probable than none.I think I do remember an article by Richard Carrier on the probability of multiple gods. I don't remember being impressed by it. Are you saying you agree with him?
IF a deity exited, it would be - but you have to first provide evidence that one exists.Is your answer to question 1 a yes?
Question 1
If God exists, would you agree that the sentiments atheists commonly hold, concerning how one should correctly go about proving His existience, are not particularly usefull?
Well, I think what actually is happening is that I am assuming that my way of determining whether or not a deity exists is better than your way of determining whether or not a deity exists.Greetings,
You assume a deity exists -
Greetings,
You assume a deity exists - we don't. It's for you to provide evidence that it does.
You;re attempting to avoid doing so by saying that it's "not particularly useful" to question the deity's existence by asking for evidence.
Most religions have texts, not just the monotheistic ones. And these were predated by oral traditions.
Mu earlier criteria could be amended to
1 Prove that it's possible for any deity to exist;
2 Having proven 1 above, prove that the deity in which you believe exists to the exclusion of all others;
3 Having proven 1 and 2 above, prove that the deity in which you believe created and/or has anything to do with physical reality;
4 Having proven 1, 2, and 3 above, prove that the deity in which you believe has anything to do with your religious texts/oral tradition (and religion).
it doesn't change anything as to what you have to prove.
Thank you for your answer here. Not sure if you are right or not but I think you are probably smarter that Richard Carrier.Yes, many are more probable than one, and one is more probable than none.
Thank you for your honesty here. I know it's probably a bit unfair of me to ask someone to disprove something without me giving my own reasons for believing something exists.IF a deity exited, it would be - but you have to first provide evidence that one exists.
So I think the most relevant thing I have to offer here is to let you know that no one has ever proven any of these things to me. There is automatically no person I would even considered qualified to be able to do so.Mu earlier criteria could be amended to
1 Prove that it's possible for any deity to exist;
2 Having proven 1 above, prove that the deity in which you believe exists to the exclusion of all others;
3 Having proven 1 and 2 above, prove that the deity in which you believe created and/or has anything to do with physical reality;
4 Having proven 1, 2, and 3 above, prove that the deity in which you believe has anything to do with your religious texts/oral tradition (and religion).
My belief in God is a humble value judgement, based on my own personal obseveration.
Things working the way I would expect them to if the God of the Bible exists. People behaving as expected.What did you observe?
Things working the way I would expect them to if the God of the Bible exists. People behaving as expected.
That's my thinking for over a decade--debating this question should precede any debate on the existence of a god, otherwise, it seems you're making a huge a priori assumption that is pretty dubious. It's a different question. If there were some kind of all powerful thing going around exercising its powers, you'd think we would see evidence, like Noah's flood, there would be obvious signs. We have observations that look at the whole universe across all kinds of metrics, and there ain't any clear signs of it being fucked with. The laws of physics rule out that sort of god. Asking if one exists assumes it's possible for a being to exist that isn't governed by them and there is no reason to think that's true.Mu earlier criteria could be amended to
1 Prove that it's possible for any deity to exist;
James
The God of the Bible/Christianity obviously doesn't exist.