How prevelant is this belief?

[irmerk]

I was having a conversation today about how crazy people like VenomFangX and Dr. Kent Hovind are in their disinformation and misinformation campaigns when the other person said he was skeptical that that many people actually share such beliefs or are in such a following. I was under the presumption, since thousands subscribe to VFX and many, many thousands believe what Hovind - and those like him such as Ted Haggard, Intelligent Design advocates, the Creationist Museum enthusiasts, Jesus Camp goers, etc. - says or propagates, there really is, at least in this country, a very big number.

He still remained skeptical. So, I would like to hear what other people think.

 

[Shapeshifter]

Here you go.

And here's the first hit, a gallup poll just for you, containing detailed statistical information.

No offense, really, but one distinct trait of how rational people gather information - like how...

...many people actually share such beliefs or are in such a following...

is to go looking for it. Really, I don't mean to nag but it strikes me how often people just "ask themselves" or ask people what they "think about" something, even as others have already performed research on the subject. It's not like philosophizing or exchanging opinions, it just asking "how many?". And the internet has all the answers





But yes, it also amazes me how utterly ignorant people must be to buy all that creationist crap. It's unbelievable how few people (currently ~14%) believe that god had no doing in the appearance of humans.

edit: In the "Related Items" section to the right of that gallup poll there's plenty of other interesting statistics on this subject.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Like Shapeshifter points out, this isn't exactly an area where you're allowed to form your own opinion... there is some good hard data on the subject. Yay science!

 

[irmerk]

Yeah, I decided to look for it here because I did not know there was already a poll on this stuff, nor did I think such wide ranging beliefs when it comes to VFX to Hovind to ID would be so conveniently and adequately depicted in one single source. Actually, I think my asking other people what they think or have found to be true is a method of looking for it. Is Google searching the only way to look for things, nowadays? Sorry I wanted to hear peoples personal and lifetime experiences in play with perhaps external sources found as well so badly that I got myself worked up enough to forget to search Google with a particular set of words.

One or a few polls results on particular questions is surely not like exchanging opinions - and if you only wanted philosophizing and exchanging opinions, did you not come to the wrong place due to pretty much everything I have seen on here being based off of facts and reason? Surely there is no say in the matter, just look at MGK's new identity - because of course it is just a result, but asking what other people think the prevalence of these ideas and concepts, along with their devoutness, is. I thought it would provide for at least a little bit of discourse on what people also think about the unfortunate state of peoples beliefs being so prevalent.

Anyway, I was meaning, by mentioning VFX and Hovind, not just the lack of a belief in God's intervention with evolution or support for public office candidates with belief in evolution, but rather the same propagation or support for bad science and disinformation and oppression, such as the belief in a meter thick layer of ice surrounding the Earth which allowed dinosaurs to be so big, the seed of a fruit curing cancer, objective morality, stratification of rock being created by the great flood, or other nonsense usually debunked on here or YouTube.

I mean, you made it sound like I am stupid because asking questions on a forum is stupid for one, I am stupid for not spending who knows how much time searching Google until I find the right key words to find part of what I wanted for two, hearing peoples personal relationship or experience stories or insights is worthless when a poll answers a narrow aspect of my question for three and that asking what other people think about a case by case basis of experience as well as what those other people have come to find has been researched is not as good as trying to find half of the question at hand - the research.

Edit: If you are really so opposed to people not just doing the work for themselves, I would expect you to make similar posts on such threads:

Rehabilitation vs. punishment.
George Carlin and privileges.
Oh, that's yours...
Never heard of Google?
Link this dumb author to Google.
Surely this has been beaten to death on the internet for the past several years!
Redundant, just Google it.
Haha.
Stupid Jim Carrey.
Is this guy new to the internet?
Overlooked by neuroscience.
Since there are many more pages of threads, I will stop.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I mean, you made it sound like I am stupid because asking questions on a forum is stupid for one, I am stupid for not spending who knows how much time searching Google until I find the right key words to find part of what I wanted for two, hearing peoples personal relationship or experience stories or insights is worthless when a poll answers a narrow aspect of my question for three and that asking what other people think about a case by case basis of experience as well as what those other people have come to find has been researched is not as good as trying to find half of the question at hand - the research.

Hey, you managed to convince yourself that circumcision was a great evil based on the medical degree you got from Google University... :lol:

 

[Shapeshifter]

I wanted to hear peoples personal and lifetime experiences in play with perhaps external sources found as well so badly that I got myself worked up enough to forget to search Google with a particular set of words.

Well this is a valid request, no doubt. It wasn't clear to me that you wanted to hear peoples stories of how many creationists they know etc. etc. Your question was posed in a very general way.

if you only wanted philosophizing and exchanging opinions, did you not come to the wrong place due to pretty much everything I have seen on here being based off of facts and reason?.

First of all, by far not everything in this forum is based on known fact. Some of it is plain philosophy (you noticed there's a whole section) and a lot of it is social discussion (where opinion matters a lot). Also, not all forum threads pose questions. Some authors just show things to others.

such as the belief in a meter thick layer of ice surrounding the Earth which allowed dinosaurs to be so big, the seed of a fruit curing cancer, objective morality, stratification of rock being created by the great flood, ...

Yeah I would like to see some statistics about that as well. Well at least this 95% +-3 confident study from gallup shows that 31% of the people apparently take the bible for fact:

I mean, you made it sound like I am stupid because asking questions on a forum is stupid for one, I am stupid for not spending who knows how much time searching Google until I find the right key words to find part of what I wanted for two, hearing peoples personal relationship or experience stories or insights is worthless when a poll answers a narrow aspect of my question for three and that asking what other people think about a case by case basis of experience as well as what those other people have come to find has been researched is not as good as trying to find half of the question at hand - the research.

You asked how prevalent belief is. It says it right there. You made an assumption about the number of people sharing creationist beliefs, so I pointed out that naturally you could just google this information, as it is a simple statistical number.

--> You didn't ask for personal stories at all.

Edit: If you are really so opposed to people not just doing the work for themselves, I would expect you to make similar posts on such threads ...

You posted three different kinds of threads:
- Polls on social opinions
- Discussions on philosophical and social matters
- People who weren't able to google

Now, if you were to make a poll asking "How many creationists do you know" or "What percentage of your friends is creationist", it would make perfect sense. But if you'd make a poll "How many people share creationist belief?", this would make no sense at all because everyone would just be guessing. And this is what you asked. All the polls you posted are legitimate in my personal opinion. As are the discussions on social and philosophical questions.

Both the LoR wallpapers, and especially the Singularity would have been easy, so yes, I agree, similar comments would have been in place.

---

I never called you stupid and I clearly stated that no offense was intended. On the other hand, I always encourage people to learn how to google, and use wikipedia and all other useful ressources on the web. If you didn't get the message, then I'm sorry.
Now that you have clarified your question, it makes a lot more sense.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I mean, you made it sound like I am stupid...

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think you are stupid, or even within spitting range of stupid. I think you're probably a REALLY smart person who happens to have been tripped up in this specific situation, and I very much doubt you'll ask another question like this without making a Google search first, and/or clarifying that you specifically wanted anecdotes instead of statistics.

 

[Aught3]

I don't know why you two have a bee in your respective bonnets for, it's just a question. Apparently, the OP wasn't dull or stupid enough to stop you posting replies and bumping up the thread. Is it too much to ask that when someone posts a question people actually answer and, more importantly, provide insight that the readers might not have access to?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I don't know why you two have a bee in your respective bonnets for, it's just a question. Apparently, the OP wasn't dull or stupid enough to stop you posting replies and bumping up the thread. Is it too much to ask that when someone posts a question people actually answer and, more importantly, provide insight that the readers might not have access to?

I think you're the one with the bees...

It was just a point that there is good data, easily found. No one is attacking anyone here.

This is the sort of thing that shows why atheists don't form effective political groups, with the "herding cats" line coming to mind. We tend to find some tiny bit of disagreement, and focus on it. I don't think any of us should take it seriously. Sure as shit no one here is saying that irmerk is "dull or stupid."

 

[Aught3]

I think you're the one with the bees...

XP yes, I realised the irony when I got to the end of what I was saying. But I didn't mean to imply you were calling irmerk dull, just his post. I suppose I get annoyed when people start calling questions stupid, because I don't think there is such a thing.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

XP yes, I realised the irony when I got to the end of what I was saying. But I didn't mean to imply you were calling irmerk dull, just his post. I suppose I get annoyed when people start calling questions stupid, because I don't think there is such a thing.

There sure are stupid questions... this didn't dip to that level, but there IS such a thing.

 

[Aught3]

Stupid on purpose maybe, but not genuine questions where the person wants an answer.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I think its reasonable to wonder what those 40% people who believe god created man within the last 10,000 years or whatever it was believe about God/creationism/evolution exactly. It seems to me that some people just put down the most religious answer just because they want to be religious, and they may not Actually believe that the bible is literally true.

I have a hard time believing those studies, I'm not sure if it's just because I SO don't want it to be true or if they seem a little poorly written. Probably the former.

Edit: Oh god 53%! I even lie to myself about what I hope are lies!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Stupid on purpose maybe, but not genuine questions where the person wants an answer.

We're going way off topic here, but there ARE stupid questions that are "genuine" in that someone isn't intentionally being dense, but are still asking something that only an idiot would be asking. It takes some sort of backwards skill to ask a stupid question, but it can be done. I've recently returned to college after a decade-plus break... and I hear flat-out stupid questions all the time!

The definition of a stupid question seems to involve asking the question after being giving the answer a few times, and not getting it.

 

[Aught3]

I think its reasonable to wonder what those 40% people who believe god created man within the last 10,000 years or whatever it was believe about God/creationism/evolution exactly. It seems to me that some people just put down the most religious answer just because they want to be religious, and they may not Actually believe that the bible is literally true.

Good point, self-report data are notoriously bad at questions like this. Did anyone see the recent poll about atheists praying?

I would title it one in twenty atheists screw with pollsters

@Joe, Sure your not talking about human stupidity, 'cause I agree with you there :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think its reasonable to wonder what those 40% people who believe god created man within the last 10,000 years or whatever it was believe about God/creationism/evolution exactly. It seems to me that some people just put down the most religious answer just because they want to be religious, and they may not Actually believe that the bible is literally true.

I have a hard time believing those studies, I'm not sure if it's just because I SO don't want it to be true or if they seem a little poorly written. Probably the former.

Or, really, there's the fact that all of us on this thread have given the subject serious thought. On the other hand, how many religious people are capable of doing more than parroting the statements their preachers feed them, or that they read on creationist websites?

 

[Sparky]

A. Evolution, that is, the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life

Definitely true - 18%
Probably true - 35%
Probably false - 16%
Definitely false - 28%
No opinion - 3%

B. Creationism, that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years

Definitely true - 39%
Probably true - 27%
Probably false - 16%
Definitely false - 15%
No opinion - 3%

How can more than 50% of people say that evolution is definitely or probably true AND then in the next question there are more than 50% of people say that creationism is definitely true?

Sounds like a dubious study to me.....

How many people do you know who say "evolution is probably true - but so is creationism"?

 

[Otokogoroshi]

How many people do you know who say "evolution is probably true - but so is creationism"?

My dad.


Many people really don't like the idea of humans being animals or at all equal to the other critters that inhabit this big ball of dirt of ours. I really honestly think people want to feel special.

My friend once got into an argument with someone in science class when she called humans animals and the person protested saying "I'm not an animal!" Her retort: "You're one funny looking plant!"

So I think that supports my hypothesis that people just want to be 'special' and evolution tells us that despite all our amazing traits... we're still animals.

 

[Code]

I assume it's adult getting interviewed in these things, so I must point out that the majority of American adults today grew up in the era of an America that took pride in being Christian, due to the fact that Soviet Russia was atheistic. "Under God" was put in the pledge in 1954, prayers were said in schools, etc. Going through school now, 70-80% of people I talk to accept evolution, and I live in the Bible belt, as I learned in my 8th grade Biology class. This would explain why we have such a surge of people who are just "lol idk" about religion, while the non-questioning adult whose religious opinions were formed by the Christian pride of the Cold War, just believe what they are told. Both types are of the same creed, but were raised in a different time.

So in essence, most normal people don't give a crap about this stuff.

 

[irmerk]

Going through school now, 70-80% of people I talk to accept evolution, and I live in the Bible belt, as I learned in my 8th grade Biology class.

This is what I tried to clarify as to the kind of thing I wanted on my second post. Personal experiences when it comes to ludicrous beliefs. That is also why I tried to point directly to a lot of shit Hovind and VFX promote (Meter thick ice surrounding the Earth in the atmosphere) which I severely doubt are depicted in a simple evolution vs. creationism poll. Like said already in this thread, many creationists probably just say, "Yeah, I believe in the Bible." I would kind of equate this poll to polling who is a conservative. Many people might identify themselves as conservatives but among them there are probably many differences such as abortion concepts, welfare beliefs, health care policy support, military funding, etc. So, to keep this metaphor going, I tried to more directly ask for those personal experiences - because I doubt a poll can get such minute details - of people among creationists who believe in crazy shit you hear, not just that they say they are creationists. Another example as a belief would be Pat Robertson's addressing of atheist and theist relationships.

Try not to bring up your failure to read and understand many peoples posts on that thread, Joe. The point was that medical organizations and medical personnel have no reason to recommend it and that it is a humans rights issue. In no way does this summary of the entire thread in one sentence imply that I have more medical expertize than doctors due to Google. If you want to actually provide substance in an argument, go back to the thread and redeem yourself.

Anyway, sorry I was so unclear on my start of this thread. Who gives a shit if my question was not philosophy or the exchange of opinions in the first place anyway? It was a fucking question, and the lack of using Google to search for an answer does not make the question dumb or less worthy of someone just answering without being a non offensive dick about it.

Yeah, a Gallup poll shows how many by percentage take the Bible as fact, but, again, it does not really describe the prevalence of just those minor details. Again, a poll can show how many people are devout conservatives, but when you ask someone, such as my mom (who is a devout conservative), you learn that when it comes down to particular details, they share beliefs with liberals and other parts of the spectrum.

Sure, using Google more often is probably a good thing, but not using it and instead asking other people does not really seem a less honorable (lack of a better word) method.

So, now that the question has been more clearly specified, I would like to hear some of the personal stories on the matter.


Me, personally, from specific to general as much as I can recall:
:: My mother believes that the devil created television and corrupted us via shows like House - addiction is a good thing or just okay - or Insert Show Here - homosexuality is okay - and is ruining our moral fiber.
: My mother believes practically the same thing with the internet - PORN! Literally, she believes that Satan resides inside the series of tubes some politicians call the internet.
:: My brothers friend believes that the longer she prays, the more likely the prayer is to come true, even in the face of many of her own books scriptures quotes saying that, "If you pray, you shall get."
:: My dad believes that if we allow homosexuals to marry, the children they adopt will be harmfully raised or that the moral fiber of our society and or the institution of marriage will be corrupted.
: Not as crazy, but my dad believes that evolution was true but God helped started the whole process (He will go to hell for this).
:: My mother and my father think that my brother and I are going to burn in hell for all of eternity.
:: An old friend of mine believes that the Bible is true simply because you cannot disprove it.
:: Of everyone from my high school, the most read and favorite book by far was the Bible, and most people have never willingly read another book.
:: I still hear people in university, as I did in high school, talking about atheism as if it is a godless religion; the most ridiculous thing you can believe in.

After that, it just comes down to VFX and his subscribers, CARM, the creationist museum attendees and employees, Hovind followers, Pat Robertson and the late great Jerry Falwell followers, everyone in Ponca City, Oklahoma (Anyone wearing tight jeans without a cowboy hat is a god damned faggot and Bush's smoking gun was justified), the Phelps, ID advocates and the Texas School Board of Education, and a few other groups that I actually know of that believe in truly ridiculous key concepts. I was just hoping to hear some stories or personal experiences that would help justify me telling this person that there really are tons of people out there that think the world and universe really is 6,000 years old, that the Earth does have a spherical orbit around the sun, that stratification of rocks does happen when you stir sediments up, that there really is not a fossil record, that the 'academic community' is actually a secret group of eight Jews in an underground bunker seeking world dominance by dictating what is true and what is not. I was just taken aback when the person said that they can hardly believe there is that big of a number with such radically ridiculous beliefs.