Gonna need some help...

[Garden]

K well heres a message I got.

"I have looked at the scientific studies there is no conclusive evidence that homosexuals have a genetic disorder. Sexual preference is influenced and learned from several variables. Homosexuality is not hardwired and people's sexual preference changes more than you know. You are being taught incomplete results of much research and clinical experience. and you are being taught that homosexual behavior is a normal variation of human sexuality, when in truth it is a deviancy and not normal and can be treated and changed. Check out NARTH,: www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm for scientific research and understanding.

FRom my own experience and understanding there are many factors which effect peoples personality and ability to relate to others. there are intergenerational factors, and spiritual influences,
Also Richard Cohen founder of the International Healing Foundation has great insights as he came out of homosexuality and has helped many others to heal from unwanted SSA's[Same Sex Attractions] Others have come out of it through prayer and support of spiritual community and loved ones. Some have just grown out of it [lauman et.at]
There is an attack on traditional family and morality by leftwing political activists who have used marxist tactics to promote this GBLT movement they are ponds of satan. We are all victoms of Satan's lies and invasion

Do not try to redifine marriage. God defines marriage and most marriages don't measure up to God's standards but the concept of gay marriage is a counterfiet and false attempt to copy God's true pattern for the human family. To teach young people that homosexuality is normal is a great tragedy and causes more suffering in the long run because it just isn't true. Study and learn all you can about this subject you are young and hav much to learn. Also pray for wisdom and discernment. God loves you but hates homosexual acts and all freesex outside of marriage. Your emotions and psychological problems can be healed and change is possible. Peace and blessings!"

My original message basically said that being homosexual happens in nature and that gay marriage would be beneficial to humanity because gay parents will start families, and since they cannot conceive a child they will adopt children. And I asked if having kids raised by same sex parents is better than having them raised in orphanages. This person was a little more crazier than i expected so I could use some help.

I will do the research myself but im going to bed now and im not the brightest, so any help would be awesome and much appreciated

 

[Aught3]

Hit him with the twin studies. I can't remember the actual numbers but it's something like:
Identical twins: If one twin is gay, 50% chance the other is gay
Non-identical twins: 20% (I think, can't quite remember)
Adopted children in the same home: Same rate as in the population
This is powerful evidence that there is a massive genetic influence on sexual attraction.

As for changes in sexual attraction, we all went through this. It's called growing up. Sexual preferences change over time as well. I don't know any foolproof way to stop it (maybe chemical?); all you can really do is stop acting on those desires.

There are environmental factors as well, but most of them are to do with in utero effects. For example, hormone imbalances or antibody interactions.

 

[Garden]

thanks that's I'll have to look that up, when I have time. I just argued that it was irrelevant if being gay is a lifestyle choice or not, and that we live in a country where state and church are separated. And I asked for some evidence that gay marriage is bad for society, outside of religion.

I'm sure she/he will have a huge list but at least I'm taking her out of her comfort zone of religion and into some sort of topic I can attack. I agreed that gay marriage is not god approved, also told her to move to Saudi Arabia.

First ever debate about religion and such for me... Should be educational.

 

[Aught3]

Maybe you could paste it in the 'Debates Archive' section as you go along.
That way we can all follow and give pointers.

 

[Penguin_Factory]

Hey Garden. I don't really know what you do in reply to this level of concentrated bigotry, but here's my take on the whole thing:

I have looked at the scientific studies there is no conclusive evidence that homosexuals have a genetic disorder. Sexual preference is influenced and learned from several variables. Homosexuality is not hardwired and people's sexual preference changes more than you know.

I'm assuming you didn't actually propose that homosexuality is caused by a genetic disorder. Point out that "hardwired" doesn't equal "genetic disorder". This guy is restricting his search for information needlessly in an attempt to cast homosexuals in a poor light.

You are being taught incomplete results of much research and clinical experience.

Ask him to back this up with evidence.

and you are being taught that homosexual behavior is a normal variation of human sexuality, when in truth it is a deviancy and not normal and can be treated and changed.

1) The idea that homosexuality is a "deviancy" or abnormal is an opinion, not a fact and
2) Even assuming that homosexuality can be altered, that doesn't mean that homosexuals chose to be that way originally. Make him provide you with exact details of the evidence backing up these assertions.

Also Richard Cohen founder of the International Healing Foundation has great insights as he came out of homosexuality and has helped many others to heal from unwanted SSA's[Same Sex Attractions] Others have come out of it through prayer and support of spiritual community and loved ones. Some have just grown out of it [lauman et.at]

Even granting that this is all true, the fact that homosexuals can change doesn't mean that they should. He is assuming that homosexuality is in some way immoral and should self-evidently be "corrected" if it can be. Get him to provide you with reasons for why, exactly, homosexuality is wrong (this is always fun).

There is an attack on traditional family and morality by leftwing political activists who have used marxist tactics to promote this GBLT movement they are ponds of satan. We are all victoms of Satan's lies and invasion

I would be willing to bet that he doesn't even know what that word means. Ask for specific examples of the "marxist" tactics being employed.

To teach young people that homosexuality is normal is a great tragedy and causes more suffering in the long run because it just isn't true.

Again, this is his own, subjective opinion. Ask him how teaching something that he does't consider true causes suffering- exactly who is being made to suffer, and in what way?

Your emotions and psychological problems can be healed and change is possible. Peace and blessings!"

Telling someone they have psychological problems then saying "peace and blessings" is completely absurd. I'd really go to town on this bit.

Overall, if your assessment of your original post is accurate it really doesn't look as if he's made any attempt to reply to you meaningfully. All he's done is presented a religiously motivated attack on homosexuality and homosexual marriage wit absolutely no substance behind it and claimed that homosexuality can be "healed". Your points about gay marriage being beneficial have gone totally unaddressed. I would reply by pointing this out and simply reiterating your earlier arguments. Also, make sure he understands that God's opinions don't hold any weight with you and that you won't accept religiously motivated opinions.

 

[Garden]

awh narff, totally forgot about the debate thread.

Lol, he replied to my second message and went under the assumption that I was gay and it was possible because my family wasn't tradtional (which means a family that loves each other :roll: ). anyways im not gay so his message was pretty useless, he basically tried to tell me what made me gay and how I can choose to and should choose to be attracted to women. And he totally didn't answer my question (how you guess... maybe the third time is the charm), so I asked again.
I don't expect a reply.

Thanks for the help, its awesome to see a way to debate.

 

[Epicion]

Sigh, This old question gets thrown around way too much. I tend to stay away from this particular question as the Twin Studies(mentioned earlier by a poster) Does not have a big enough sample rate to make it strong evidence for anything. Not to mention there are still some people claiming information contradictory to that evidence. e.g

Homosexual Twin Studies

Two American activists recently published studies showing that if one of a pair of identical twins is homosexual, the other member of the pair will be, too, in just under 50% of the cases. On this basis, they claim that "homosexuality is genetic."

But two other genetic researchers--one heads one of the largest genetics departments in the country, the other is at Harvard--comment:

While the authors interpreted their findings as evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality, we think that the data in fact provide strong evidence for the influence of the environment.{2}

The author of the lead article on genes and behavior in a special issue of Science speaks of the renewed scientific recognition of the importance of environment. He notes the growing understanding that:

... the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press.The same data that show the effects of genes, also point to the enormous influence of nongenetic factors.{3}

Link for the website after googling Homosexuality+Genetic for 2 seconds is http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

I personally stay away from this subject because there is so much information from both sides its hard to decipher which one is correct, I'll simply wait a bit more until conclusive answer is given.

-Am

 

[Aught3]

The answer is becoming more and more conclusive you just don't like the way the evidence is coming out (lol) because it doesn't fit with your prejudices.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

The answer is becoming more and more conclusive you just don't like the way the evidence is coming out (lol) because it doesn't fit with your prejudices.

Agreed.

And besides, even if it is NOT genetic, who the hell gave modern religion the right to define marriage in the first place? It existed before Christianity and Islam and it will exist after them. In a secular state, they can't have a legal claim over it's terms >.<

 

[Hammerstein]

How about approaching it from this angle:

Get him/her to explain to you why they think homosexuality is wrong without using the bible (I mean seriously, do you care what the bible says?)
Usually the only thing that people come up with is the "it's not natural" angle in which case you get to watch them twist and turn as they define "natural" for you or they go the "you can't reproduce with gay sex so it's wrong" route and the answer to that is "non sequitur" after all you can't reproduce by watching NASCAR but that doesn't make it wrong (it's wrong for all kinds of other reasons).

Bon chance

 

[Penguin_Factory]

anyways im not gay so his message was pretty useless, he basically tried to tell me what made me gay and how I can choose to and should choose to be attracted to women.

Will you post the message? I need a good laugh :lol:

I wonder if you can get him over here so we can all have a go at him.

 

[Garden]

"You have a poor understanding of traditional family maybe that's why your gay? Many I should say true family where there are father and mother and brothers and sisters who truely love eachother. Truelove is living for the sake of others where the purpose of the individual and the purpose of the whole do not contradict each other. Any way that's another subject.
People are not born gay. You weren't born gay, happy maybe. You did not begin to think you were gay until you were a young teenager at the earliest. If you are a male and all your physical features are male than ultimately you are created to be able to find a female and love her and become one with her.and possibly create children with her. We are able to experience the love and presense of God also..

You decided at some point you were attracted to someone of the same sex. If you are unable to love someone of the opposite sex then you need to look into yourself and find out why. I am sympathetic to gays they are just looking for love and acceptance and as I said many things contribute to who we are. I understand human desire and what causes people to be gay. I also am aware of how the spiritual world effects us. Satan is not another deity the satanic realm incompasses a whole group of negative entities including evil and confused men and women in the spiritual world and fallen angels where selfishness, jealousy, accusation and resentment rule,. The original satan who tempted our original ancestors and influenced them ot fall was an angel named Lucifer.

you have free will and you are able to think and learn. You may not have chosen to be gay but you can choose to stay gay or learn what causes it and find true freedom. We are beings of love and we are able to love on many levels. We do not need to be ruled by illicit sexual desire or any sexual desire, and desiring someone of the same gender for sex, to me, is perverted and illogical. I was once young and experimented sexually myself and I understand lust and addictions. Happy learning I hope you find peace and true love and true happiness that comes from knowing God and his truth and love"


...Ya so surprise, surprise, she gives me these couple lectures and then she ignores my question to her. God Damn Bigots.

 

[Aught3]

Ah, yes they tend to do that. Ignoring your opponent's points is really irritating. I always try to acknowledge when I think they make a good point and to respond to any questions.

'True family' is a blatant no true Scotsman fallacy, besides we know that two women are the best parent combination (if you even need two).

You decided at some point you were attracted to someone of the same sex.

This should be corrected to realised rather than decided. It's not a choice, many people even try to reject it once they realise but it's very difficult to do.

Damn right no one born gay, we're born essentially asexual. She doesn't seem to understand the development of sexuality, maybe she wants everyone to be asexual forever. After all it's a choice. Note that she is trying to convince people to live a lie to satisfy her own religious bigotry. Where's the tolerance?

I take it you didn't convince her to visit the LoR?

 

[Mapp]

In the future I would stay away from the debate about genetics entirely. At this point, it's too theoretical. I would focus on this quote:

Do not try to redifine marriage. God defines marriage and most marriages don't measure up to God's standards but the concept of gay marriage is a counterfiet and false attempt to copy God's true pattern for the human family. To teach young people that homosexuality is normal is a great tragedy and causes more suffering in the long run because it just isn't true. Study and learn all you can about this subject you are young and hav much to learn. Also pray for wisdom and discernment. God loves you but hates homosexual acts and all freesex outside of marriage. Your emotions and psychological problems can be healed and change is possible. Peace and blessings!"

God defines marriage according to whom? The Bible talks about marriage to multiple partners, it talks about the possibility of male prostitution. The Qu'ran discusses marriage as acceptable with any female who has experienced a menstruation, including children. Marriage as an institution predates the Bible, and existed in societies in isolation of monotheism for generations. The only conclusion that comes from an honest examination of the evidence is that man defines marriage. Furthermore, God's definition of marriage in a secular society is ultimately irrelevant since it is the state that determines legality not the priesthood.

Also, where is the evidence that teaching children about homosexuality as a norm is harmful? We certainly have ample evidence of the contrary, backed up by solid psychiatric evidence, that teaching gay children that they are sinful, filthy and immoral is incredibly damaging to the mind. One need only take the case study of a Reverend Ted Haggard to demonstrate how a lifetime of repression can lead to such self-destructive activities as drug use and anonymous sex with random partners.

You can grant him everything he said about homosexuality being a choice, you can grant him that people aren't born homosexuals, and choose it instead. Even still, NONE of it is an argument against allowing gay marriage. Just the same as you can grant a creationist every argument they make about the supposed flaws in Evolutionary theory, NONE of them are compelling evidence for intelligent design.