• Welcome to League Of Reason Forums! Please read the rules before posting.
    If you are willing and able please consider making a donation to help with site overheads.
    Donations can be made via here

Explaining Macroevolution to a creationist

AronRa

Administrator
arg-fallbackName="AronRa"/>
Someone posted the following message on a Creationism group on Facebook.
Evolution Accepters say that Microevolution and Macroevolution are the same. If you can walk inches (micro) then in enough time and steps you can walk miles (macro.)
I disagree. I think you should consider it like this...A long jumper can train and add inches to his jump (micro) however even if he trains for years he will never be able to jump a mile (macro).
Allow me to explain further. The jumpers first recorded jump is the original population. The training and practice and further recorded jumps are the accumulation of change. The jumper's personal best record is the observation of microevolution. The not being able to jump a mile is the limit. So , no macro and no universal common ancestry.
A dog can become a different looking dog. Micro However, a fish will never become a mammal. Macro /universal common ancestry.
I replied with the following video explaining what micro and macroevolution really are.


That led to another attempt on this forum to explain evolution to a creationist.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
TBH, I've long suspected that this is a bed we've made for ourselves in at least some measure, by virtue of the 'macro is just lots of micro' line of argumentation because, while it's not a horrible rule of thumb guide, it's misleadingly inaccurate and leads to the idea that macroevolutionary processes are a challenge to observe. In particular, it overlooks what is one of the fundamental ideas in understanding evolution; inter-species shared alleles. These vary with every new birth and death, and that variation is macroevolution.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mithcoriel"/>
TBH, I've long suspected that this is a bed we've made for ourselves in at least some measure, by virtue of the 'macro is just lots of micro' line of argumentation because, while it's not a horrible rule of thumb guide, it's misleadingly inaccurate and leads to the idea that macroevolutionary processes are a challenge to observe. In particular, it overlooks what is one of the fundamental ideas in understanding evolution; inter-species shared alleles. These vary with every new birth and death, and that variation is macroevolution.
Why is it inaccurate to say "macro is just lots of micro"?
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
Why is it inaccurate to say "macro is just lots of micro"?
Put simply, because it's more a matter of scope than scale. Macroevolution is an area of study, and what it studies is all processes that entail variations in frequencies of alleles at or above species level. We share, for example, enormous numbers of alleles with our closest primate cousins. That is, we have the exact same gene coding for the exact same protein. Every time a chimpanzee, say, or a gorilla, gives birth, this is a macroevolutionary process, because it's variation in the frequencies of those specific alleles that are carried by all three species. So macroevolution occurs with every new birth and death, and understanding the proper scope of macroevolution is a better way to counter assertions that macroevolution hasn't been observed. There really is no difference between micro and macro in this context, because they're simply different ways of looking at a single process. There is huge value in treating them as different from an epistemic perspective, because it can teach us things about evolution as a whole that might not be immediately obvious from first principles but, as with all things, the map is not the terrain. Distinguishing between them is a useful fiction; an idealisation, if you will.

Looking at it in this way also carries an additional benefit, namely that it's trivial for anybody to observe the statistics on the current trends in extinction since the inception of the anthropocene, and understanding that extinction is by definition macroevolution (I'd argue that extinction is, in fact, the underlying process that drives speciation, thus it's the foundation of all macroevolutionary processes. :D) means that all objections to macroevolution evaporate, simply by being rigorous in the use of the term and reflecting its usage in the primary literature.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
A birth is both microevolution AND macroevolution. It will constitute a new variation of alleles extant in the species (micro) and a new variation of shared alleles with other species (macro). The entire point is that it's silly to separate them in definitional terms the way we do because it muddies the waters just like this.

Evolution is variation in allele frequencies. Microevolution is variation in allele frequencies below species level, i.e. within a population. Macroevolution is variation in allele frequencies at or above species level.

Extinction, speciation, variation in frequencies of shared alleles, all are macroevolution.

The point is that there are processes occurring on each scale for which we have a classification (and for which there are still extant mambers). We have genus-level processes and family-level processes and so on involving variations in allele frequencies, all constituting macroevolutionary processes.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
The best analogy I can think of is looking at data on a linear or a logarithmic scale. They're different ways of representing looking at the same data on different scales.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Why is it inaccurate to say "macro is just lots of micro"?

Hack's not saying it's inaccurate, but rather there's a limited scope to which that concept applies, whereas the concept of macroevolution includes other - perhaps more integral - explanatory scope.

Personally, I generally worry very little about whether a scientific term can be misused by antagonists hostile to science because I don't see that they're involved in the conversation or have any credibility. Their misuse of such a term just shows that they're under-equipped to have their contentions taken seriously.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
That's a much better way of putting it.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,

One could also say that the use of the term "population" is problematic in that it's associated with (micro)evolution within a species.

Macroevolution is, effectively, evolution within a population that includes more than one species.

Kindest regards,

James
 
Last edited:
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
If I may wander for a moment, I think topics like this revolve around semantics. And I don't mean that as a dismissal - semantics are important as they are as much the structure of our thoughts as of our language.

Language is often problematic, trapping us down wells the words themselves have dug. Nouns, for example, have to essentialize, they have to signify a specific thing, else there'd be no point in having just one noun for them - but we all know and have to keep remembering that even a singular noun can signify potentially diverse objects collated into a signified coherent, discrete unit. We have to do that - the language and modelling parts of our minds understand the world by breaking it up into bits. But it's often the case that dividing nature in that way is contrary to how nature is actually operating.

Merely calling the set of closely related organisms a 'population' or a 'species' is imposing the tyranny of the discontinuous mind (I think Dawkins wrote that?). We're reaching for a platonic idealized form, some abstraction we all share, or believe we share, but is grossly simplified to facilitate exchanging the shared idea. Of course, a population is necessarily comprised of a substantial amount of variation - genetic, anatomical, superficial, epigenetic - each and every variable is part of the whole we simplify down into a single noun that just can't really hope to do all that heavy lifting.

We know that species/populations change dramatically over time, but we also know that no parent ever gives birth to a species different than their own so there is continual gradation moment to moment, generation to generation... and if our language makes us say otherwise, then it is our language that is poorly reflecting nature.


To wander off a little further...

A population can be considered many ways; one useful metaphor is to see it like a snapshot in time and space. if you had perfect knowledge of the system, and could pause time and count all the diverse alleles among the numerous individuals spread across various environments, track each and every variation and degree of difference, record them all and plot a mean point for each - then you could finally have a truly objective idealized form of that specific moment.

Wandering concluded! :)
 
Last edited:
arg-fallbackName="JohnHeintz"/>
Someone posted the following message on a Creationism group on Facebook.

I replied with the following video explaining what micro and macroevolution really are.


That led to another attempt on this forum to explain evolution to a creationist.

Thanks for posting all of this.
I have watched the video. Actually I think I've seen it before . Anyway, I agree with most of what is being said in it . If it's all the same with you , let's forget the "long jumper" analogy. Let me tell you why I am "stuck" on believing in universal common ancestry.
It has nothing to do with religion, what any single religious text says , the age of this planet or anything related to such ideas. It's based on the sheer impossibility of it (in my opinion). This may be my personal ignorance or incredulity. That's what we are here to find out
Here's one of my sticking points. Let's use WHALE Evolution for the example.
So you start with Indohyus/Pakicetus or a population of something in the lineage that is a land mammal. You end up millions of years later with a whale. Ok. How does it start ? How many offspring get the mutation to move the nostrils backwards on the snout leading to the blowhole? Does one mother's litter or do several scattered around a geographic area ? If it's the one litter there are questions. Is the change barely noticeable from the parents? If so, why does it get selected? What is the likelihood it's in the germline and will get passed ? Not many offspring survive to reproductive age. What are the odds that it will be the ones with the mutation ? When the mutated offspring reproduces , what if it's offspring get the other parents genes? Or the grandparents ?
If it's several litters that get the mutation there are questions. How many? Why would they all get the same random mutation moving their nostrils back ? How far apart do they live ?
What are the odds they will intermix ? Why are the mutated genes always dominant?
This of course is just the beginning of the sticking point. Then I consider how many transitions it takes. Whales are very different from a small land mammal. So there are other considerations.
If mutations are random, why did this lineage always get mutations that lead to being suited for aquatic life ? Other organisms that live near water barely change. Why did this one change so drastically?
Aron. I don't mean to do a million questions. I'm trying to show you how I think about these things.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
Welcome, John. You've come to the right place.
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
I'm not Aron... but HI John! :)

How many offspring get the mutation to move the nostrils backwards on the snout leading to the blowhole?

With something that simple, it could arise in one generation, but there's no need to appeal to a 'hopeful monster' scenario because evolution confers advantage to a trait that offers any benefit (to reproduction) at all, so the nostrils can migrate over generations, each iteration moving gradually anteriorly until further mutations cease conferring any benefit and the trait fixes in the population becoming universal.


Is the change barely noticeable from the parents? If so, why does it get selected?

In this context, the primary reason is that it confers an advantage over not having that trait because it gives the possessor statistically better chances of successfully breeding.

From the perspective of selection, mutations are either detrimental, neutral, or advantageous to reproduction. Selection weeds out the deleterious or detrimental mutations: the individual with the mutation dies, fails to reproduce, or just statistically reproduces less than individuals absent that trait. Selection retains the rarer mutation which directly confers a statistical reproductive advantage in the possessors of that trait. Finally, there are neutral mutations - ones which confer neither advantage nor disadvantage, and those changes can in future generations become the basis of new mutations which can then in turn be selective.

When the mutated offspring reproduces , what if it's offspring get the other parents genes? Or the grandparents ?

Then it isn't passed on in that individual. But if the trait is offering reproductive advantage, then the individual with that trait may well be having substantially more offspring than its fellows without the trait, and thus again statistically, the trait will be favoured. Some percentage of its offspring will have the trait, and those offspring will also receive the same reproductive advantage, and their offspring with the trait will also statistically parent more offspring with that trait and so on - you probably know the power of exponential growth and that's what can occur with a highly favourable trait in a population.

If it's several litters that get the mutation there are questions. How many?

There's no one answer to that: it's how long is a piece of string?

In a given litter, approximately 50% of the offspring will get that trait - 50% genes from each parent.

Those in possession of the advantageous trait have a reproductive advantage meaning that either they're more successful to breed, or just that they have more offspring over the course of their lives. Each consequent generation, this factor is compounded with the individuals of each generation which possess that trait leaving more offspring than the individuals absent that trait. Depending on the numbers you plug in here, it can take hundreds of generations, or it could take just a handful for that trait to become the norm among the entire population.


If mutations are random, why did this lineage always get mutations that lead to being suited for aquatic life ?

I think that answers itself. They didn't only get mutations (which are random) suited to aquatic life - they collectively got a bunch of mutations, many of which conferred no benefit to an aquatic lifestyle - but simply retained through selection those mutations which did benefit them in their aquatic lifestyle.


Other organisms that live near water barely change. Why did this one change so drastically?

Presumably because, for their lifestyle, the particular whale's traits you're pointing to conferred no advantage. They live a different lifestyle, undergo different survival pressures, and so the environment in which mutations arise in their population is different. Evolution's not trying to push organisms towards a lifestyle, it's merely conferring potential advantage towards any lifestyle! There's no single target.


I don't mean to do a million questions. I'm trying to show you how I think about these things.

You ask all the questions you like - it's not a problem at all.

I'll ask some back.

If you deny common ancestry, then how do you account for the diverse lines of evidence that caused scientists to hypothesize this in the first place?

DNA, for example, evidences nested hierarchies of descent in which descendants share a preponderance of genes with similar species.

Those same genetic relationships are then corroborated by anatomy (homologous structures), their biogeographical distribution, and the fossil record providing examples of the path divergence took. On top of that, we've directly witnessed and recorded evolution occurring both in the wild and in the lab.

So I think you have to acknowledge that this isn't just a woolly idea held in possibility space, but an idea that arises directly from the available evidence - so even if evolution and common ancestry is wrong, we still need to explain the above set of facts. The best explanation we've come up with is evolution, and tens of thousands of researchers work in fields which implicitly assume or test evolutionary principles year in year out, and we've found no reason to believe it's a bad idea that doesn't work. Rather, it's an incredibly fertile field of discovery - Biology has its unifying theory, and you'd be hard pressed to find any biologists working in relevant fields that don't accept it as fact because they're surrounded by those facts all the time.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mithcoriel"/>
I think we need to distinguish between what scientists call macroevolution, and what creationists call macroevolution. A creationist's definition will be something like "Microevolution causes the diversity between different kinds of cats, macroevolution is when a common ancestor diverges into cats and dogs." Then I think the "macro is lots of micro" makes sense.

As for the analogy with jumping a mile: Who says you have to cover that mile in one jump? Just keep adding jump after jump till you've travelled a mile. Where in the analogy to evolution is the part that says it needs to be one jump? Unless you're saying the changes all need to happen in one generation?
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 42253"/>
Then I think the "macro is lots of micro" makes sense.
Problem is, macro crosses certain thresholds that are pretty much game changing.
One stick is easy to break, twenty are not.
The moment you have enough sticks for them to not break anymore, you pass the threshold between micro and macro and the whole situation changes drastically.
Or in video game terms ... big difference between needing two hits at 99 damage to kill an enemy and being able to one hit em with a 100 damage hit. Even though you just do 1 damage more.
 
arg-fallbackName="AronRa"/>
Let me tell you why I am "stuck" on believing in universal common ancestry.
It has nothing to do with religion, what any single religious text says , the age of this planet or anything related to such ideas. It's based on the sheer impossibility of it (in my opinion). This may be my personal ignorance or incredulity. That's what we are here to find out.
What you see as impossibility, I see as inevitability. I think the difference in perspectives may be a problem of scale. You're looking at one individual in one generation. I'm looking at differentiating populations over millennia, where it is impossible for them to stay the same as their ancestors were. For example, whales emerged from the sister lineage of artiodactyls. Do you accept that all of these animals are biologically related to each other? Meaning that they all evolved from a common ancestor?
1623597448741.png

Here's one of my sticking points. Let's use WHALE Evolution for the example.
So you start with Indohyus/Pakicetus or a population of something in the lineage that is a land mammal. You end up millions of years later with a whale. Ok. How does it start ?
I don't intend to use my videos for a personalized explanation, but I did do one that covers this. So I will include it.


How many offspring get the mutation to move the nostrils backwards on the snout leading to the blowhole?
Evolution at every level is a matter of incremental, superficial changes being slowly compiled atop successive tiers of fundamental similarity. The adaptation you're talking about didn't begin until about the time that the cetaceans had already abandoned the land altogether.

Does one mother's litter or do several scattered around a geographic area ?
A novel mutation will usually appear in a single individual. We don't consider it evolution unless that trait is passed through later generations until there is eventually a whole group with that modification.

If it's the one litter there are questions. Is the change barely noticeable from the parents?
Think of how dogs were derived from wolves, and how hounds were derived from dogs. We go from something like a bloodhound to something like a basset hound until we get something like a dachshund. Your question seems to be wondering why a wolf gave birth to a Weiner dog.

If so, why does it get selected? What is the likelihood it's in the germline and will get passed ? Not many offspring survive to reproductive age. What are the odds that it will be the ones with the mutation ?
Remember that natural selection is based on whole populations over many generations. So we're talking about weighing population mechanics over long periods, where movement of the nostrils would be immediately advantageous, and so would tend to proliferate at the zoomed out scale.

When the mutated offspring reproduces , what if it's offspring get the other parents genes? Or the grandparents ?
Evolution is a theory of biodiversity. The law of biodiversity holds that one original population will become two then four, eight, sixteen and so on, except for those groups that go extinct. This is why some species that happen across a lucky improvement take quick advantage of that while others don't seem much different than their ancestors.

If it's several litters that get the mutation there are questions. How many? Why would they all get the same random mutation moving their nostrils back ? How far apart do they live ?
The same mutation isn't likely to occur independently in different lineages. That has happened, but it is extremely rare.

What are the odds they will intermix ?
Different breeds of a single species can produce fertile offspring, which would often blend their differences. Different species can usually only produce infertile hybrids, and then only if they're in the same genus. Interbreeding species in different genera can't produce anything at all, even if they're both from the same taxonomic family.

Why are the mutated genes always dominant?
They're not.

This of course is just the beginning of the sticking point. Then I consider how many transitions it takes. Whales are very different from a small land mammal. So there are other considerations.
Look at the dramatic differences between skull shapes in modern dog breeds, and remember that most of that happened just within a couple thousand generations. Modern humpback whales take five to fourteen years to reach sexual maturity. The hippopotamus is the closest living relative to whales. A female hippopotamus reaches sexual maturity between five and six years old. Smaller animals tend to reach sexual maturity much faster than that. Pigs for example can reach maturity in only six months. This is what we should reasonably expect of Indohyus as well. But let's be conservative and estimate five years per generation. Indohyus dates back 50 million years. So that means ten million generations have passed since indohyus. Your question about moving the nostrils is the type of change that could happen in less than 1,000 generations, if it was something that breeders thought desirable in dogs.

If mutations are random, why did this lineage always get mutations that lead to being suited for aquatic life ?
It didn't. Every sibling in every generation is born with a suite of unique mutations. Humans, for example, are born with an average of 128 mutations per zygote. This is the formula for diversity. Subtle changes happen in every population. Split one population into two and even after as few as dozens of generations, we might already be able to tell the difference. If we found a lone wanderer in the no man's land between the two groups, we might be able to tell just by looking at it which group it came from, even if they were all the same group 100 generations ago.

Other organisms that live near water barely change. Why did this one change so drastically?
Selective pressures apply to some environments depending on the lifestyle, the "niche". For example, sharks, dolphins, ichthyosaurs, and even some mosasaurs and crocodiles have all adopted the same shape for high speed predation in the water. Similarly, a number of different lineages have adapted the crocodile shape as an ambush predator at the water's edge. The ancestors of whales occupied that niche for a while too. So did phytosaurs and a number of giant salamanders. Eventually environmental conditions will weed out which ones were best suited for that. Crocodilians won. But there were, as I said, one lineage of crocodilians that moved to a different niche in the open ocean, developing shark-like tail flukes. Whales did the same. The difference being that whales are warm-blooded and could develop blubber, where cold waters just killed crocodiles.
1623598092808.png
Is this a product of evolution? Intelligent design? Something else?

Aron. I don't mean to do a million questions. I'm trying to show you how I think about these things.
Your questions are sincere. So I don't mind at all. I only suggest that we look at this scientifically, comparing two different hypotheses, biological evolution vs magical creation. Which one is born out by the evidence. Obviously creationism falls flat immediately. If you can think of another option that explains all this better than evolution, you'll be famous.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 42253"/>
Evolution at every level is a matter of incremental, superficial changes being slowly compiled atop successive tiers of fundamental similarity. The adaptation you're talking about didn't begin until about the time that the cetaceans had already abandoned the land altogether.
It can happen pretty quickly, when radiation or certain chemicals are involved. Or a catastrophic change in the enviroment happens.
We currently have a radioactive boar problem in Europe and Japan for example. Turns out, boars breed like wild in a radiated enviroment bereft of humans. The amount of mutations that are likely to currently occur in them, thanks to the radiation and the rapid breeding speed, should be insane. But thats just conjecture so far.
The best example for "quick and dirty" evolution are cockroaches though, adapting to poison and pollution at an insane speed. Rats at a close second place.
"Evolution baby!" - Pearl Jam.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top