• Welcome to League Of Reason Forums! Please read the rules before posting.
    If you are willing and able please consider making a donation to help with site overheads.
    Donations can be made via here

Evidence against evolution paradigm

Wind Of Change

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Wind Of Change"/>
Scientific predictions emerge as a logical necessity from scientific theories. Scientists use these predictions to evaluate the validity of a scientific theory. If the experiments and observations fulfill the predictions of the theory, then scientists consider the theory to be appropriate. If the experiments and observations do not match the predictions, then the scientists are required to reformulate the theory or abandon it. In conclusion, successful scientific theories have explanatory power and prophetic power.

This is why biologists see the theory of evolution as a valid explanation for the history of life.

In contrast, the evolutionary paradigm has not yet adequately explained key events in the history of life, such as (1) the origin of life, (2) the origin of the phylum, (3) the origin of the reproductive system, (4) the cause of the great sociocultural explosion and human uniqueness and ( 5) The origin of consciousness. The theory of evolution also suffers from failed predictions, as a recent study by a team of geoscientists at the University of Georgia showed.(1)


Nudibranch

Researchers from the University of Georgia have characterized the neural circuits involved in the swimming behavior of nudibranch. These creatures were used as an ideal model of research on neural circuits because their nervous systems are made up of relatively large neurons. The neural circuits of these creatures are simple and easy to map. In addition, the neural circuits of nudibranch regulate simple behaviors. These features make it easy to characterize and then, control the neural circuit of these creatures.

Biologists have identified about 2,000 species of nudibranch . With this number, about 50 swim in a right and left motion.

The researchers investigated the neural mechanism associated with the swimming movement of two species of the nudibranch (right and left movement): the large melibe. From an evolutionary point of view, these two species of those nudibranch share a common ancestor. In fact, all 50 nudibranch that are characterized by right and left movement belong to the same branch in the evolutionary tree.


The predictions of the evolutionary model

Given the fact that the nudibranch characterized by right and left movement are evolutionarily related to each other, the evolutionary model predicts that morphology, genetics, and behavior originate in the common ancestor of this group. And given the fact that this swimming movement characterizes this whole group, the expectation is that the neurons and the neural circuit that controls this behavior will also be common among all species.

Scientists from the University of Georgia said, “… Often, behavioral morphology is assumed to involve similarities in neural mechanisms… Naturally identical behaviors indicate that they were formed by identical mechanisms.2


The neural circuit of Nudibranch

Based on the prediction of the evolutionary model, the researchers found that the neurons of the large nudibranch were identical to those of the melibes. But they were surprised to find that the neural mechanisms that controlled the swimming movement of the two species of nudibranch were different.

In fact, they used a technique (dynamic clamping) that allowed them to change the neural circuit of one of the nudibranch so that it was identical to that of the other, while at the same time causing the same swimming behavior.


The failure of the evolutionary paradigm

The surprising discovery of the difference in the neural circuit of the two species of nudibranch contradicts the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm. So how did these researchers react to the surprising discovery?

First, they pointed out that their findings support the principle of plasticity of the nervous system, in that the same neurons support many neural circuits and in that the change in neural circuits created the same behavior. If these two species were not from the same evolutionary branch, it could be argued that the difference in neural circuits represents an example of convergence.

The researchers suggest that perhaps this separation from the neural mechanism of the common ancestor of the nudibranch, is the result of a neural drift. But this does not make sense given the importance of swimming behavior for the survival of the nudibranch. A change in the neural circuit would change the behavior, which would hurt the survivability of the nudibranch. In fact, there is no evidence of what is called "genetic drift." This is an invented explanation that creates a deflection from the real problem. The problem is that the results of this study do not agree with the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.

Remarks:

1. Akira Sakurai and Paul S. Katz, “Artificial Synaptic Rewiring Demonstrates That Distinct Neural Circuit Configuration Underlie Homologous Behaviors,” Current Biology 27 (June 19, 2017): 1–14, doi: 10.1016 / j.cub.2017.05.016 .

2. Ibid.
 
arg-fallbackName="AronRa"/>
Scientific predictions emerge as a logical necessity from scientific theories. Scientists use these predictions to evaluate the validity of a scientific theory. If the experiments and observations fulfill the predictions of the theory, then scientists consider the theory to be appropriate. If the experiments and observations do not match the predictions, then the scientists are required to reformulate the theory or abandon it. In conclusion, successful scientific theories have explanatory power and prophetic power.
I would say that scientific theories have predictive power rather than prophetic. Prophesies always tend to either fail or remain unfulfilled.

This is why biologists see the theory of evolution as a valid explanation for the history of life.
That is also why creationism is not an explanation of any kind, having never made even one successful prediction ever, and always denying it's many failed predictions.

In contrast, the evolutionary paradigm has not yet adequately explained key events in the history of life, such as (1) the origin of life, (2) the origin of the phylum, (3) the origin of the reproductive system, (4) the cause of the great sociocultural explosion and human uniqueness and ( 5) The origin of consciousness.
Actually evolution has explained all of these things, except for abiogenesis. Because the origin of genetics obviously does not fall within the definition of "descent with inherent [genetic] modification". So evolution doesn't explain abiogenesis for the same reason that atomic theory doesn't explain the exponential growth of American fast food franchises. However, biochemistry has already explained most of abiogenesis. When we're done with your central topic, I would happily explain that to you, as well as all these other explanations you didn't know about, one at a time.

The theory of evolution also suffers from failed predictions, as a recent study by a team of geoscientists at the University of Georgia showed.(1)
Spoiler alert: You didn't list any failed predictions. Nor could you. Like the other things above, where you said evolution doesn't explain what it really does, you simply assume that it doesn't, and you assume there are failed predictions, without knowing any better.

Nudibranch

Researchers from the University of Georgia have characterized the neural circuits involved in the swimming behavior of nudibranch. These creatures were used as an ideal model of research on neural circuits because their nervous systems are made up of relatively large neurons. The neural circuits of these creatures are simple and easy to map. In addition, the neural circuits of nudibranch regulate simple behaviors. These features make it easy to characterize and then, control the neural circuit of these creatures.

Biologists have identified about 2,000 species of nudibranch . With this number, about 50 swim in a right and left motion.

The researchers investigated the neural mechanism associated with the swimming movement of two species of the nudibranch (right and left movement): the large melibe. From an evolutionary point of view, these two species of those nudibranch share a common ancestor. In fact, all 50 nudibranch that are characterized by right and left movement belong to the same branch in the evolutionary tree.


The predictions of the evolutionary model

Given the fact that the nudibranch characterized by right and left movement are evolutionarily related to each other, the evolutionary model predicts that morphology, genetics, and behavior originate in the common ancestor of this group. And given the fact that this swimming movement characterizes this whole group, the expectation is that the neurons and the neural circuit that controls this behavior will also be common among all species.

Scientists from the University of Georgia said, “… Often, behavioral morphology is assumed to involve similarities in neural mechanisms… Naturally identical behaviors indicate that they were formed by identical mechanisms.2


The neural circuit of Nudibranch

Based on the prediction of the evolutionary model, the researchers found that the neurons of the large nudibranch were identical to those of the melibes. But they were surprised to find that the neural mechanisms that controlled the swimming movement of the two species of nudibranch were different.

In fact, they used a technique (dynamic clamping) that allowed them to change the neural circuit of one of the nudibranch so that it was identical to that of the other, while at the same time causing the same swimming behavior.


The failure of the evolutionary paradigm

The surprising discovery of the difference in the neural circuit of the two species of nudibranch contradicts the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.
No, it doesn't. That's not what the study said or implied. That's just an ignorant assumption on your part. In fact, you even admit that the study says the very opposite of that, though you don't understand it.

You're saying that if something is not expected (because it's not that common) then it is somehow a contradiction. A contradiction would be something showing that our understanding is wrong and that it doesn't work. There is no data to imply that in this study; quite the opposite in fact.

The expectation is that this lineage will follow the normal pattern that most things usually do; that any significant mutation in this area would be "expected" to produce a different feature or behavior. However, there are rare occasions when different lineages can derive the same trait independently. This could happen by having identical mutations, but that is highly unlikely and would be difficult to trace. Instead, two descendent lineages of the same common ancestor have been shown to derive the same trait independently by different means. "For example, genetic pathways to dark skin are different in Tamil Nadu and in Nigeria." There are other cases in which more distantly-related lineages have to work around an inherited genetic defect, which may be what happened here. No one ever predicted that neither of these things could ever happen, despite your erroneous interpretation.

Of course we expect that most things will work out the the way they usually do, even though we know that some things might not ALWAYS be the same way every day. But if it's not "normal" that doesn't mean it's paranormal. It only means it is less common. Naturally identical behaviors normally do involve similarities in identical neural mechanisms, just like you said. But in this case, there was evidently a secondary or alternate mechanism.

We're talking about two different genera of sea slugs (nudibranchs). You called them different species, but we actually comparing one of at least 17 species from the genus, Melibe with one of at least a couple dozen species from another genus, Dendronotus. These genera are from different families (Tethydidae and Dendronotidae) both Tritonioideans within Dendronotoidea. The very fact that this taxonomy remains consistent is already a profound argument against your contention. These are all gastropod mollusks, literally slugs. If slugs are indisputably related to snails, then two genera of the same "superfamily" of slugs are definitely all related too.

So how did these researchers react to the surprising discovery?

First, they pointed out that their findings support the principle of plasticity of the nervous system, in that the same neurons support many neural circuits and in that the change in neural circuits created the same behavior. If these two species were not from the same evolutionary branch, it could be argued that the difference in neural circuits represents an example of convergence.

The researchers suggest that perhaps this separation from the neural mechanism of the common ancestor of the nudibranch, is the result of a neural drift. But this does not make sense given the importance of swimming behavior for the survival of the nudibranch. A change in the neural circuit would change the behavior, which would hurt the survivability of the nudibranch.
That's exactly why it DOES make sense! By your own admission, there are thousands of species within the Order, Nudibranchia:
Not all of these are swimmers. So we know that not swimming doesn't necessarily hurt their survivability. But it does provide an advantage, and those that adapted swimming use a number of methods. Initially these are awkward undulations without efficient fluidity. Of those that adapted swimming, only about 50 use the side-to-side motion. Whether you're talking about species or genera or what, I don't know. I haven't studied these. So I don't know which ones swim or how many different ways they do. But according to the study you cited, what we have here are two different families of swimmers that independently arrived at the side-to-side fluidity by different genetic pathways, and you even cited one of the experiments they did (dynamic clamping) to show that two different configurations would result in the same behavior. So what do you imagine to be the problem?

In fact, there is no evidence of what is called "genetic drift." This is an invented explanation that creates a deflection from the real problem. The problem is that the results of this study do not agree with the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.
Yes, they do. Can you show me any explanation of anything ever that was not "invented"? We could say the same thing about the laws of nature that we know of. Newton's Laws of Motion, Boyle's Gas Law, Mendel's laws of genetics, Virchow's and Haeckel's different laws of Biogenesis; they were all invented by us.

Genetic Drift is the most fundamental principle that all evolution is based on, and it is evident in every individual of every generation of every species ever studied, including these, even according to your own citation. So I'm guessing you don't know what genetic drift even is. You certainly didn't give any indication as to its absence here. So "the real problem" is that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
 
arg-fallbackName="Wind Of Change"/>
look how you're saying I'm "assuming" while your just stating that "Actually evolution has explained all of these things", but you didn't even gave any explanation.. just assumed evolution adequately explain them. like the origin of the reproductive system and consciousness, how can you say you know the answers for how they evolved?
 
arg-fallbackName="AronRa"/>
look how you're saying I'm "assuming" while your just stating that "Actually evolution has explained all of these things", but you didn't even gave any explanation.. just assumed evolution adequately explain them. like the origin of the reproductive system and consciousness, how can you say you know the answers for how they evolved?
I know these things because I've dedicated my life to studying them. The reason I didn't open all those cans of other worms already is that I didn't want to completely confuse this conversation. Notice that I even told you I would be happy to explain any or all of these to you one at a time, once we're done with you initial argument, which I guess we are. So, if you're ready to concede that this study you cited does NOT "contradict the evolutionary paradigm", then pick which of those other topics you'd like me to explain to you, and I will.
 
arg-fallbackName="Wind Of Change"/>
Yes, they do. Can you show me any explanation of anything ever that was not "invented"? We could say the same thing about the laws of nature that we know of. Newton's Laws of Motion, Boyle's Gas Law, Mendel's laws of genetics, Virchow's and Haeckel's different laws of Biogenesis; they were all invented by us.

Genetic Drift is the most fundamental principle that all evolution is based on, and it is evident in every individual of every generation of every species ever studied, including these, even according to your own citation. So I'm guessing you don't know what genetic drift even is. You certainly didn't give any indication as to its absence here. So "the real problem" is that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Oops I meant neural drift, accidentally wrote "genetic".

I'll phrase again.
In fact, there is no evidence of what is called "neural drift." This is an invented explanation that creates a deflection from the real problem. The problem is that the results of this study do not agree with the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nesslig20"/>
Oops I meant neural drift, accidentally wrote "genetic".

I'll phrase again.
In fact, there is no evidence of what is called "neural drift." This is an invented explanation that creates a deflection from the real problem. The problem is that the results of this study do not agree with the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.
I have read some of this research. It shows that in order for behavior to be conserved, the underlying neural circuitry doesn't have to be conserved as well. And that caution must be taken with generalizing results across species, specifically in regards to the neural mechanisms.


https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2017.05.016

Does this disprove the entire evolutionary paradigm? No...
 
Last edited:
arg-fallbackName="AronRa"/>
I'll phrase again.
In fact, there is no evidence of what is called "neural drift." This is an invented explanation that creates a deflection from the real problem. The problem is that the results of this study do not agree with the prediction of the evolutionary paradigm.
It is amusing to me that in science, we cannot say that this is what how it is without evidence to show that. But religion does the opposite, saying that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and you state it as fact anyway. I wonder why we both don't adhere to the same rules?

Your question was already answered in my previous post. We don't need neural drift for alternate configurations which can occur independently.
 
Back
Top