Drugs are bad...mmm'kay

[CircinatePhoenix]

-snip-

 

[xman]

... I am against the legalization of drugs because, I dont' want a bunch of Cheech and Chong, hippie mother fuckers stinking up my continent with their pussy ass cry baby, "I can't handle the basic emotions of my life so I need a hit of something to make it all better" attitude and mentality.

Then support decriminalization. Get it out of the closet, properly taxed and counseled, the criminals will no longer have a monopoly on distribution and sellers will be compelled not to sell to minors just like with alcohol. We don't solve our problems by running from them.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It seems weird to agree with a post that uses 'dumbass' half a dozen times.

Yeah, but how can you not agree with "fuck the hippies"?

 

[derkvanl]

I haven't seen any fact that is in favor of the War on Drugs, except the drugs are bad argument till now.

The "war on drugs" is too broad of a term to use as it encompasses not just the illegality of drugs but the actual combat against them in drug laden countries such as Columbia and all the other legislation on the topic. Whether or not something should be illegal doesn't necessarily mean that an entire subject should involve a global war on it.

If you are going to make / keep something illegal and try to keep it that way, it ends in a war between criminality and justice. The war on drugs is a global war, fought over the poor countries backs in South America, South East Asia, Middle East and North Africa. Let's call it a 75% global war then.

Ideology: Legalize it
My philosophy: Better to teach the people about drugs and fully decriminalize it through regulation and control of the natural products. Fighting it attracts criminality, which is the actual problem. Educating the people about the problems, benefits and dangerous of drug use and abuse will eventually have a more positive effect.

That is already done. Maybe not as well as it should be, but it is done and it doesn't solve the problem. Look at it this way. Alcohol is legal, and its part of the anti drug education that most kids get. However, Alcohol use is still wide spread and the problems created by it have not been diminished by education.

Alcohol had its time during the Prohibition 1920-1930's somewhat around there. Do your history. Alcohol had it's illegal time. Really worked well back then, didn't it.

You are giving people too much credit in their intelligence. People are dumbasses. If given the choice between doing the right thing and the dumbass thing, they will chose the dumbass thing. That is why so many dumbass things are done.

Yeah right ...

Stop criminality that it causes, make people aware all the pros and cons of use and abuse and trust in decent human mind to make the right decisions.

You can't do that, people are dumbasses. You are basing your argument on a Utopian type situation where people are smart enough to make the right decision. The fact is, they are not. If they were, there wouldn't be all the problems there are in the world. Criminalizing something ensures that those who make the wrong decisions pay for it, and deters others from doing the same.

Don't make an argument based on human goodness. Humanity has proven time and time again, that it is not good and most certainly not wise.

Stop doing it yourself. Instead of trusting other people for their judgement, it seems that yours is the only one and all the others are dumbasses.

Legalizing will stop street dealers from selling to kids because you can control age limits like on alcohol and tobacco.

Legalizing alcohol and tobacco doesn't stop kids from getting it. They don't buy it at a licensed store, they get it from older friends, and friends of friends, the same way they get pot and other drugs. However, at least with it being underground, a 15 year olds older buddy can't just walk into a gas station and get a pack of pot to share like he can with cigarettes.

That's called bad regulation. That's not because it's legal.

Just because something is legalized and regulated does not mean that it is inaccessible to minors, in fact it makes it that much easier to obtain because now it can be purchased legally by someone of age and then given to the minor much easier than having to find a dealer in some shady alley or basement.

Well, if an adult gives cigarettes to a minor, it's the fault of the cigarette store? Because if it wasn't there the minor would never have been given that cigarette?

Environmental benefits of using marihuana fibres instead of nylon again for rope and textiles. Stopping the usage of gasoline and diesellike products for making cocaine because it's cheaper than traditional and stop the poisoning of rainforest grounds in cocaine producing countries (the farmers get shit-price for products we buy for 100$/€ a gram). Stop the weapon industry and terrorists making a great lot of money of our drugs through criminality.

I understand you are just listing off examples, but this just seems like hippie shit to me.

Well, with that attitude in discussion, don't bother replying.

My side is of course for keeping it illegal, but I want to see why others take their positions.

Why? Can't think of a good answer to that yourself?

I already stated my reasoning before, I wanted to see why others chose their position.

Great, but from your reply I understand, you want it to stay illegal, just because you think so and all the people are too dumbass to choose for themselves.

But to simplify it, I am against the legalization of drugs because, I dont' want a bunch of Cheech and Chong, hippie mother fuckers stinking up my continent with their pussy ass cry baby, "I can't handle the basic emotions of my life so I need a hit of something to make it all better" attitude and mentality.

Yeah, we know by now. Just go on being shortsighted and prejudiced and call everyone else dumbass.

 

[Eidolon]

If you are going to make / keep something illegal and try to keep it that way, it ends in a war between criminality and justice. The war on drugs is a global war, fought over the poor countries backs in South America, South East Asia, Middle East and North Africa. Let's call it a 75% global war then.

The reason these wars are fought in those countries, is because they are destitute shit holes with no oppurtunities out side of drug trade, piracy, extortion, and various other fun after school activities. Decriminalizing drugs will not solve their problems, it will just make those involved in these activities, less liable for the shitty conditions of their countries.

What is needed is not to decriminalize a criminal activity, but to give those who would normally participate in them, better opportunities. How to do this is not know, but thats a topic for a different discussion.

Alcohol had its time during the Prohibition 1920-1930's somewhat around there. Do your history. Alcohol had it's illegal time. Really worked well back then, didn't it.

Please, stop with this prohibition shit. Its not the same scenario. It didn't work because the shit was already legal, and ingrained the culture at the time. OF course it was doomed to fail! You can't just have something perfectly legal one day, and the next ban it out right and not expect the shit to hit the fan. However, pot is not legal, and is not as widely used as tobacco or alcohol, and keeping it illegal will keep it from becoming an accepted part of our culture.

And on this note, prohibition would have worked had they just not given in to the criminal organizations. Eventually, those who wanted alcohol, while still getting it underground, would die off, and the new generations would not be exposed to it, and thus would not have any desire for it. And given 100 or so years and several generations passing, it would not be an issue, and alcohol problems would not exist in the magnatude they do today. So yes, Prohibition does work as long as people aren't pussies about it and give in to crooks.

That's called bad regulation. That's not because it's legal.

And how would you regulate it? How would you keep it out of a minors hands?

Stop criminality that it causes, make people aware all the pros and cons of use and abuse and trust in decent human mind to make the right decisions.

You seem to have this really annoying, pissing sunshine kind of optimistic attitude towards the decency of the average human. People, give in to temptation all the time. As I have said, they are dumbasses. People don't make decisions based on what the know is the right thing to do, or even on logic for that matter, they make their choices based on what they think will feel good to them. People don't want to think too hard about things, they don't want to weight the pros and cons, they just want to do what will get them off in a quick and sometimes dirty manner. People don't do drugs because they have sat down and decided it would be a good career move, or will improve some aspect of their life, they do them because they want quick euphoria, and they want it regardless of the consequences.

Now granted, not every human is a dumbass to the same degree, but everyone makes bogus choices. Some are perfectly harmless, but no less illogical, while others are extremely devastating. One thing is for sure, people will undoubtedly make bad choices so when you have the ability to keep them from making at least one shitty choice by banning it, then you have saved them from screwing themselves over. So what is the better thing to do? Prevent someone from screwing the pooch? Or say, ehh screw it, go ahead and screw yourself.

Well, if an adult gives cigarettes to a minor, it's the fault of the cigarette store? Because if it wasn't there the minor would never have been given that cigarette?

You basically answered your own question. Regardless of whether its legal or not, if its accessible, minors will be able to obtain it.

Shit, it doesn't even have to be given to them. If their parents, older siblings, or friends simply have a pack sitting around, whats to stop them from taking a few or the whole pack? Someone doesn't have to actually give them to a minor, kids have hands too.

Environmental benefits of using marihuana fibres instead of nylon again for rope and textiles. Stopping the usage of gasoline and diesellike products for making cocaine because it's cheaper than traditional and stop the poisoning of rainforest grounds in cocaine producing countries (the farmers get shit-price for products we buy for 100$/€ a gram). Stop the weapon industry and terrorists making a great lot of money of our drugs through criminality.

I understand you are just listing off examples, but this just seems like hippie shit to me.

Well, with that attitude in discussion, don't bother replying.

Dude, hemp cloth is like burlap so it wouldn't make good clothing, its not any stronger than cotton, and it sure as hell is not as rot resistant as nylon or synthetic fibers so its negligible in its use for rope and such.

As for the other points, I can't say they made much sense. How does legalizing cocaine keep the rainforest floor from being poisoned by petroleum?

 

[derkvanl]

If you are going to make / keep something illegal and try to keep it that way, it ends in a war between criminality and justice. The war on drugs is a global war, fought over the poor countries backs in South America, South East Asia, Middle East and North Africa. Let's call it a 75% global war then.

The reason these wars are fought in those countries, is because they are destitute shit holes with no oppurtunities out side of drug trade, piracy, extortion, and various other fun after school activities. Decriminalizing drugs will not solve their problems, it will just make those involved in these activities, less liable for the shitty conditions of their countries.

Some of those countries had very well sustaining economies, but the war on the drugs made drugs more profitable than other things.

What is needed is not to decriminalize a criminal activity, but to give those who would normally participate in them, better opportunities. How to do this is not know, but thats a topic for a different discussion.

The discussion is WHY it's a criminal activity. We know by now that you think it is. WHY is it criminal, where did the criminal activity start with.

Alcohol had its time during the Prohibition 1920-1930's somewhat around there. Do your history. Alcohol had it's illegal time. Really worked well back then, didn't it.

Please, stop with this prohibition shit. Its not the same scenario. It didn't work because the shit was already legal, and ingrained the culture at the time. OF course it was doomed to fail! You can't just have something perfectly legal one day, and the next ban it out right and not expect the shit to hit the fan. However, pot is not legal, and is not as widely used as tobacco or alcohol, and keeping it illegal will keep it from becoming an accepted part of our culture.

They did on drugs. Making it from perfectly legal (a taxed product in the states) product an illegal one. It just took longer to reach the same amount of criminality (maybe even worse) than with alcohol in the 20's and 30's.

[quopte]And on this note, prohibition would have worked had they just not given in to the criminal organizations.[/quote]
So they shoot have shot everyone? Because that's where it turned into very fast.

Eventually, those who wanted alcohol, while still getting it underground, would die off, and the new generations would not be exposed to it

Do you actually have an idea how many people at that time got blind due to illegal alcohol, how many blew themselves up making brandy. That's the same thing happening now with the home made drugs. Small laboratories in appartments and sheds, loads of dangerous chemicals being dumped everywhere.

and thus would not have any desire for it. And given 100 or so years and several generations passing, it would not be an issue, and alcohol problems would not exist in the magnatude they do today. So yes, Prohibition does work as long as people aren't pussies about it and give in to crooks.

The western countries where the alcohol is hardest (most expensive) to get the addiction rate is the highest.

That's called bad regulation. That's not because it's legal.

And how would you regulate it? How would you keep it out of a minors hands?

Making it illegal doesn't keep it out of minor's hands. There should be a good regulation. People are able to keep a 15 year out of a nightclub, so it should be able to keep them out of a coffeeshop. I'm don't make regulations, can't answer your question completely, but from my experience in the Netherlands with coffeeshops I see that they are better keeping the minors out than several of the normal bars and clubs.

Stop criminality that it causes, make people aware all the pros and cons of use and abuse and trust in decent human mind to make the right decisions.

You seem to have this really annoying, pissing sunshine kind of optimistic attitude towards the decency of the average human. People, give in to temptation all the time. As I have said, they are dumbasses. People don't make decisions based on what the know is the right thing to do, or even on logic for that matter, they make their choices based on what they think will feel good to them. People don't want to think too hard about things, they don't want to weight the pros and cons, they just want to do what will get them off in a quick and sometimes dirty manner. People don't do drugs because they have sat down and decided it would be a good career move, or will improve some aspect of their life, they do them because they want quick euphoria, and they want it regardless of the consequences.

I'm not gonna dicuss your view on people with you. Fine with me if you want to keep thinking about everyone as dumbasses, especially when it comes to parts where you don't agree.

Now granted, not every human is a dumbass to the same degree, but everyone makes bogus choices. Some are perfectly harmless, but no less illogical, while others are extremely devastating. One thing is for sure, people will undoubtedly make bad choices so when you have the ability to keep them from making at least one shitty choice by banning it, then you have saved them from screwing themselves over. So what is the better thing to do? Prevent someone from screwing the pooch? Or say, ehh screw it, go ahead and screw yourself.

Your drifting away ... Everyone makes bogus choice includes yourself. But that's a different point. If what you say is true, where do the "right choices" come from, since we ALL seem to screw up. Or are you that one and only decent all knowing guy that knows what's best for everyone.

Well, if an adult gives cigarettes to a minor, it's the fault of the cigarette store? Because if it wasn't there the minor would never have been given that cigarette?

You basically answered your own question. Regardless of whether its legal or not, if its accessible, minors will be able to obtain it.

Making it illegal won't help preventing minors of getting something.

Shit, it doesn't even have to be given to them. If their parents, older siblings, or friends simply have a pack sitting around, whats to stop them from taking a few or the whole pack? Someone doesn't have to actually give them to a minor, kids have hands too.

And how would this help the discussion? All the kids around someone smoking are possible thieves now? You cooled down a bit on all the dumbass people, so it's the kids that are never able to make the righ decision. If it's not given to them, they steal it.

Some kids start smoking, no matter how impossible you make it, or how much you teach about the dangers of it. Others won't even think of trying it allthough they can when they want. Your irrealistic ideology that making something illegal solves the problem has proven itself totally wrong over a lot of different things.

Dude, hemp cloth is like burlap so it wouldn't make good clothing, its not any stronger than cotton, and it sure as hell is not as rot resistant as nylon or synthetic fibers so its negligible in its use for rope and such.

Inform yourself for once.

http://www.hemp-sisters.com/
http://hempbasics.com/
http://www.hempys.com/

As for the other points, I can't say they made much sense. How does legalizing cocaine keep the rainforest floor from being poisoned by petroleum?

Because then it's also possible to regulate production and production methods. Cement, Caustic Soda, Ammonia, Gasoline (a lot), Calcium Oxide, Sulfuric acid and Coca Leafes are used in the process.

 

[psychointegrator]

On patrol in Mexico's most dangerous city (Video in the article)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8362459.stm

On this one evening on these streets 15 people were killed, their names are added to a growing list of nearly 2,000 who have been murdered in Juarez so far this year.

One of the headlines in the local newspaper here reads: "More people are murdered here than in Iraq".

In Ciudad Juarez a taskforce of thousands of federal army soldiers, federal police and municipal police patrol the streets under direct orders from the president of Mexico to bring the violence under control.

The people of this city are asking why they are still not safe?

USA is quite literally responsible for nearly all of this. It was the US that threatened Mexico to not legalize anything.
It's the laws which are not based on science, harm reduction or concern for citizens in the US that make all of this many times more potent.

Ponder a bit to what happens to children who grow up in this mess. It surely would make even more monsters.


The reason for posting this is in response to the notion drugs are bad. Everything can be bad, well perhaps dying isn't bad. Hmm.

Concluding drugs as bad and harmful compared to everything else we do and once you actually research beyond that of what the DEA says and local news, the harm is that of the laws, ignorance and humans using them as a coping mechanism.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Concluding drugs as bad and harmful compared to everything else we do and once you actually research beyond that of what the DEA says and local news, the harm is that of the laws, ignorance and humans using them as a coping mechanism.

Also, the harm is in the drugs.

 

[derkvanl]

USA is quite literally responsible for nearly all of this. It was the US that threatened Mexico to not legalize anything.
It's the laws which are not based on science, harm reduction or concern for citizens in the US that make all of this many times more potent.

Welcome to Potopia

Ponder a bit to what happens to children who grow up in this mess. It surely would make even more monsters.

Most anti-drugs people are too blind or one-way-minded to even consider the benefits of legalization, or look into the results of the drug war. For them this all happens because people use drugs and drugs are bad.

The reason for posting this is in response to the notion drugs are bad. Everything can be bad, well perhaps dying isn't bad. Hmm.

The criminal side effects of drugs are bad for society. It's time to learn from the last 30 years' mistakes.

Concluding drugs as bad and harmful compared to everything else we do and once you actually research beyond that of what the DEA says and local news, the harm is that of the laws, ignorance and humans using them as a coping mechanism.

Another good read is 5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results