theyounghistorian77
New Member
Im surprised why there isn't a Dostoyevsky thread in here, given the notorious things he said of atheism, especially in his book, The Brothers Karamazov, Ths arguably being the most famous, from which the creationist line "If god is dead: everything is permitted, even anthropophagy [which is a more elaborate way of describing cannibalism] " was born.
"here in our town, he [Ivan Fyodorovich] solemnly declared in the course of argument that in all the earth there is nothing whatever to compel human beings to love their fellows, and that a law of the type "man shall love mankind" is wholly non-existant, and that hitherto there has been any love upon the earth it has proceeded not from a natural law but solely from the fact that human beings have believed in their own immortality. Ivan Fydorovich added, moreover, the parenthetical observation that in this same circumstance rests the whole of the natural law, and that if one were to destroy mankind's faith in it's own immortality, there would instantly grow enfeebled within it not only love, but every vital force for the continuation of universial life. Not only that: then nothing would be immoral, all things would be lawful, even anthropophagy. But he went still further: he concluded with the assertion that for every private indivudial ... who believes neither in God nor his own immortality, the moral law of nature must instantly be transformed into the complete opposite of the old religious law, and that selfish egoism even to the point of evil-doing must not only be lawful to man, but must even be acknowledged to be necessary, the most reasonable and indeed possibly the most decent way out of his situation. From a paradox such as this, gentlemen, you may draw your own conclusions..." - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, "The Brothers Karamazov", Translated by David McDuff for "Penguin Classics". Pt 1, Book 2, Ch6, [p94.]
But let's debunk another dostoyevsky quote that some creationists are beginning to trot out
"Had he [Alyosha] decided that God and immortality did not exist he would have immediately become an atheist and a socialist (for socialism is not only a problem of labour, or the so called 'fourth estate', but it is in the first instance a problem of atheism, of the contemporary embodiment of atheism, the problem of the Tower of Babel, constructed expressly without God, not for the attainment of heaven from earth, but for the abasement of heaven to earth)." - ibid, Pt 1, Book 1, Ch5, [p40.]
Looks damming, but lets compare it to the one and only definition of socialism we get from the whole novel:
'And what's a socialist?' asked Smurov [to Kolya].
'It's when all men are equal, when everyone owns the same common property, when there is no marriage and religion and all the laws are for each to pick and choose, well and the rest of it." - ibid, pt3, book 10, ch3, [p674].
So what Dostoyevsky is actually describing when he says socialism to be a problem for atheism is a fact a Libertarian nihlistic socialism, and more to the point something out of Mikhail Bakunin!
And given Bakunin's well known Criticisms of Marx, Dostoyevsky is not saying something along the lines of "atheism leads to communism", not at all! So that argument from dostoyevsky is meaningless. Oh and it's not a coincidence that Ivan Fydorovich, the novels atheist was a Nihlist, as seen in the first Quote
"here in our town, he [Ivan Fyodorovich] solemnly declared in the course of argument that in all the earth there is nothing whatever to compel human beings to love their fellows, and that a law of the type "man shall love mankind" is wholly non-existant, and that hitherto there has been any love upon the earth it has proceeded not from a natural law but solely from the fact that human beings have believed in their own immortality. Ivan Fydorovich added, moreover, the parenthetical observation that in this same circumstance rests the whole of the natural law, and that if one were to destroy mankind's faith in it's own immortality, there would instantly grow enfeebled within it not only love, but every vital force for the continuation of universial life. Not only that: then nothing would be immoral, all things would be lawful, even anthropophagy. But he went still further: he concluded with the assertion that for every private indivudial ... who believes neither in God nor his own immortality, the moral law of nature must instantly be transformed into the complete opposite of the old religious law, and that selfish egoism even to the point of evil-doing must not only be lawful to man, but must even be acknowledged to be necessary, the most reasonable and indeed possibly the most decent way out of his situation. From a paradox such as this, gentlemen, you may draw your own conclusions..." - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, "The Brothers Karamazov", Translated by David McDuff for "Penguin Classics". Pt 1, Book 2, Ch6, [p94.]
But let's debunk another dostoyevsky quote that some creationists are beginning to trot out
"Had he [Alyosha] decided that God and immortality did not exist he would have immediately become an atheist and a socialist (for socialism is not only a problem of labour, or the so called 'fourth estate', but it is in the first instance a problem of atheism, of the contemporary embodiment of atheism, the problem of the Tower of Babel, constructed expressly without God, not for the attainment of heaven from earth, but for the abasement of heaven to earth)." - ibid, Pt 1, Book 1, Ch5, [p40.]
Looks damming, but lets compare it to the one and only definition of socialism we get from the whole novel:
'And what's a socialist?' asked Smurov [to Kolya].
'It's when all men are equal, when everyone owns the same common property, when there is no marriage and religion and all the laws are for each to pick and choose, well and the rest of it." - ibid, pt3, book 10, ch3, [p674].
So what Dostoyevsky is actually describing when he says socialism to be a problem for atheism is a fact a Libertarian nihlistic socialism, and more to the point something out of Mikhail Bakunin!
[url=http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/ said:internet encyclopedia of philosophy[/url]"]In Russia, nihilism became identified with a loosely organized revolutionary movement (C.1860-1917) that rejected the authority of the state, church, and family [note how similar this is to the defintion of socialism in Dostoyevsky's book?]. In his early writing, anarchist leader Mikhael Bakunin (1814-1876) composed the notorious entreaty still identified with nihilism: "Let us put our trust in the eternal spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unsearchable and eternally creative source of all life-the passion for destruction is also a creative passion!" (Reaction in Germany, 1842). The movement advocated a social arrangement based on rationalism and materialism as the sole source of knowledge and individual freedom as the highest goal. By rejecting man's spiritual essence in favor of a solely materialistic one, nihilists denounced God and religious authority as antithetical to freedom. The movement eventually deteriorated into an ethos of subversion, destruction, and anarchy, and by the late 1870s, a nihilist was anyone associated with clandestine political groups advocating terrorism and assassination.
And given Bakunin's well known Criticisms of Marx, Dostoyevsky is not saying something along the lines of "atheism leads to communism", not at all! So that argument from dostoyevsky is meaningless. Oh and it's not a coincidence that Ivan Fydorovich, the novels atheist was a Nihlist, as seen in the first Quote