Discussion on the most notorious section of the U.S constitution

[Led Zeppelin]

I think that, sometimes it can be hard to understand things because the world is so messed up.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

You said..

I know what I said. What I am getting at is that I think a person should at least be able to analyze ideas that he or she supports, before he or she suggests that foreign countries should abide by these ideas. Is that too much too ask?

 

[*SD*]

@Patty P - This seems like something you would most definitely be interested in!

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

The biggest reason why we (the people of so many other Western countries) bash Americans is probably the presence of guns and how the U.S handles gun control. Most countries of the world seem to have enacted tighter since laws since the 2nd amendment was ratified, so have there been any attempts in the U.S to repeal this amendment, and who turned them down and on what basis?

There has been more gun controls implemented post ratification of the Constitution though in certain ways have been relaxed.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

Personal opinion, I don't get the gun culture. I see no good reason to carry a gun around all the time, expecting that I might have to shoot somebody out of self-defence.

Although this is perhaps a cultural bias I have. Especially when you are living in a country where practically nobody else has a gun. It's kind of a cycle. When you promote gun carrying, you make people more nervous about others having guns who could shoot you, so you promote more gun carrying out of fear that others might shoot you, etc.

No false. We carry firearms to answer against any threat to serious bodily harm. Weapon present or no weapon present - doesn't really matter. We or I are concerned about the sharp increase in violent crime in general. That is why the most common reason cited at an FFL to obtain firearm is generally defense. The violent crime rate in my locale has tripled. I have been attacked and had to draw my firearm in self defense against a knife attack specifically. The reason I prevailed was due to a firearm and keeping a vehicle between me and the threat to prevent him from gaining ground to actually cut me.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

The information I do have is how rare gun homicide and gunshot injuries are in countries with tighter gun laws, like Canada and many European countries, Australia (my country) and New Zealand.
Could sheriffs recommend guns for law-abiding people to protect them from gangs that also have guns?

Worse still, many Americans, even gang members, often carry around guns like automatic rifles which didn't yet exist when the 2nd amendment was ratified.

No even during the days of the founders automatic firearms were already in existence. The problem was reliability and cost of such firearms or other projectile firing weapons. The concept isn't new regarding repeating firearms or having an action that would enable semi automatic or fully automatic fire. The problem is making a system that is cost effective to be common place and reliable considering black powder and the problems such a dirty powder brings.

 

[Sparhafoc]

No false. We carry firearms to answer against any threat to serious bodily harm. Weapon present or no weapon present - doesn't really matter. We or I are concerned about the sharp increase in violent crime in general. That is why the most common reason cited at an FFL to obtain firearm is generally defense. The violent crime rate in my locale has tripled. I have been attacked and had to draw my firearm in self defense against a knife attack specifically. The reason I prevailed was due to a firearm and keeping a vehicle between me and the threat to prevent him from gaining ground to actually cut me.

It's just a vicious cycle though, because the wide availability of guns means every petty thief can own one. I have no idea why you were so 'lucky' to be confronted by a knife carrier, but now imagine if he'd started by pulling a gun on you. Unless you have fastest gun-slinger in the West fantasies, I think we both know how that would've gone down.

The violent crime you refer to is itself partly a product of the widespread availability of guns. I've lived in over a dozen countries, none of which had general public availability of guns, and I've never had a gun pulled on me or anyone I know. Of course, I can't say the same about my American friends. Violent crime is not good, and I do understand and acknowledge your right to protect yourself from those who would do you harm, but at the same time, you have to acknowledge that wide availability of guns is a kind of force multiplier - if I was a burglar in the UK, I could generally consider myself safe to go unarmed and punch my way out of trouble... but if I am a burglar in the US, I know I have to be tooled up just to ensure I have at least power parity with a gun-toting homeowner. This is further reflected in a police force which is so sensitive to the fact that anyone they stop can have a gun that they treat everyone as possible mortal threats with deadly results.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

It's just a vicious cycle though, because the wide availability of guns means every petty thief can own one. I have no idea why you were so 'lucky' to be confronted by a knife carrier, but now imagine if he'd started by pulling a gun on you. Unless you have fastest gun-slinger in the West fantasies, I think we both know how that would've gone down.

The violent crime you refer to is itself partly a product of the widespread availability of guns. I've lived in over a dozen countries, none of which had general public availability of guns, and I've never had a gun pulled on me or anyone I know. Of course, I can't say the same about my American friends. Violent crime is not good, and I do understand and acknowledge your right to protect yourself from those who would do you harm, but at the same time, you have to acknowledge that wide availability of guns is a kind of force multiplier - if I was a burglar in the UK, I could generally consider myself safe to go unarmed and punch my way out of trouble... but if I am a burglar in the US, I know I have to be tooled up just to ensure I have at least power parity with a gun-toting homeowner. This is further reflected in a police force which is so sensitive to the fact that anyone they stop can have a gun that they treat everyone as possible mortal threats with deadly results.

Considering I work at a gun dealer and I still train with firearms specifically my Glock 19 I can draw and get first shot on target @ 10 yards center mass in about 1.3 seconds. I also wear concealed body armor while not working and rifle rated armor while working. Even if the thug had a firearm I still would be a great advantage NOT a disadvantage. Criminals in the U.S. and elsewhere are notorious for being lousy shots. I don't have that problem and could have easily killed him if pressed beyond him getting beyond my barrier.

Conversely if it was only legal to possess knives in public or gun controls made draconian then my stature would make it difficult to defend myself against a knife wielder considering I have less reach and basically have to put my arm and hands in harms way in order to effect defense with a non ranged weapon. This would open up the possibility of the criminal disarming me and basically taking the win given the size and weight difference. You would essentially put the advantage in the criminal's favor.

Also it wouldn't guarantee that the criminal wouldn't have a firearm anyway. There are plenty of examples of criminals obtaining firearms in other countries and other countries have significantly more gun controls and less firearms than the U.S.. There are significantly worse countries in terms of gun crime and violent crime in general and yet most of those countries have draconian gun laws.

If firearms are linked to firearms availability how do you explain the U.S. NOT being number 1 in terms of gun deaths or gun homicides or even gun crime given the numbers and the lax gun controls?

Burglaries in the U.S. which are HOT are insignificant. I wonder why they choose not to rob people at their home while they are home? If you compare other countries concerning hot burglaries you will find far less of them in countries that legally allow for overwhelming force to be used against a home intruder.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Considering I work at a gun dealer and I still train with firearms specifically my Glock 19 I can draw and get first shot on target @ 10 yards center mass in about 1.3 seconds.

Oops, my mistake: you were engaging in a fastest gun-slinger in the West fantasy. How thoroughly unsurprising.

 

[Sparhafoc]

If firearms are linked to firearms availability how do you explain the U.S. NOT being number 1 in terms of gun deaths or gun homicides or even gun crime given the numbers and the lax gun controls?

Well, that would be a stupid argument, woudn't it? Certainly I wouldn't be so sloppy in my thinking to assert that only one variable is relevant. That there are other variables, of course, doesn't remotely challenge the point though.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

I also wear concealed body armor while not working

What the fuck, are you nuts?

 

[Sparhafoc]

Have you ever imagined what it would be like if the North Korean regime suddenly collapsed and all the people isolated from the rest of humanity for so long suddenly realized that the world they've always known wasn't how things had to be?

Absolutely honestly, such a dystopian society where you feel contentment by carrying deadly weapons and wearing physical protection in case of being shot yourself is just as hard for me to empathize with.

We're prisoners of our own making.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I can't imagine being so motivated by fear.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

It's just a vicious cycle though, because the wide availability of guns means every petty thief can own one. I have no idea why you were so 'lucky' to be confronted by a knife carrier, but now imagine if he'd started by pulling a gun on you. Unless you have fastest gun-slinger in the West fantasies, I think we both know how that would've gone down.

The violent crime you refer to is itself partly a product of the widespread availability of guns. I've lived in over a dozen countries, none of which had general public availability of guns, and I've never had a gun pulled on me or anyone I know. Of course, I can't say the same about my American friends. Violent crime is not good, and I do understand and acknowledge your right to protect yourself from those who would do you harm, but at the same time, you have to acknowledge that wide availability of guns is a kind of force multiplier - if I was a burglar in the UK, I could generally consider myself safe to go unarmed and punch my way out of trouble... but if I am a burglar in the US, I know I have to be tooled up just to ensure I have at least power parity with a gun-toting homeowner. This is further reflected in a police force which is so sensitive to the fact that anyone they stop can have a gun that they treat everyone as possible mortal threats with deadly results.

As an American and a former "pro gun guy" I want to say that I think this quote from Sparhafoc is one of many I have seen on this forum which demonstrates his accurate understanding of the reality involved concerning firearms in the US.

I would also like to point out that if Joe Biden really did steal the election along with the help of communist infiltrators (as many Trump supporters claim) then we can already pretty much disregard any claim that gun owners keep Americans safe from a tyrannical government or foreign invaders bla bla bla...now it kinda seems that this argument has kinda shifted to if there is a crisis, we must have guns to shoot others who are in need of food. I am not exactly thrilled by this idea.

I think Americans have proved themselves not able to maintain a decent society where gun ownership can be legal and common. They fucked it up. I dont have the right to take a firearm from someone who deserves the right to own one. However, I would like to see gun ownership in the US almost completely phased out. The good news is I think it would be very possible to "phase out" almost completely the amount fire arms available for purchase on the black market before any drastic changes would be needed concerning legal gun ownership. The US has already been "phasing out" the amount the amount of firearms available for criminal purchase for quite some time. One thing I am sadly certain of is that no one on this forum has more personal knowledge of the procurement of illegal weapons in the Middle East, Western Europe and the US than I do. I cant speak much for the Middle East these days. But buying illegal weapons in Europe or the US now is much more expensive and difficult than it was before. It is especially more difficult now in the US than it was back in the 80's and early 90's.

*sorry for rambling, Im not very good at being concise*

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

Oops, my mistake: you were engaging in a fastest gun-slinger in the West fantasy. How thoroughly unsurprising.

No I just train and use a shot timer. Grow up.

Certainly I wouldn't be so sloppy in my thinking to assert that only one variable is relevant.

You so far only argued that guns are the issue you haven't argued any other point. So yes from what I have seen your argument is sloppy.

feel contentment by carrying deadly weapons and wearing physical protection in case of being shot yourself is just as hard for me to empathize with.

Ah so it is wrong to be confident in your ability to defend yourself - I see. Also that soft armor is spike rated so it would be protection from pistols 44 mag and under and on top of that being stabbed as firearms are NOT the only threat out there and statistically the most common in crime.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

What the fuck, are you nuts?

Considering the violent crime rate has tripled currently compared to pre corona you would be nuts not to arm up. I've already been attacked with a knife and I was glad to have both pistol and body armor. It really limits the effect the criminal has over you and frankly the body armor is current technology and is part of an undershirt system. Just looking at me and you wouldn't be able to tell I was wearing body armor.

 

[Sparhafoc]

No I just train and use a shot timer. Grow up.

And it's 'grown up' to believe that you can outdraw a bad guy intent on harming you if he's already pointing a gun at you?



It's a little boy's fantasy. It's one I hear very often from Americans who fetishize their guns.

You so far only argued that guns are the issue you haven't argued any other point.

I wasn't aware I was obliged to.

So yes from what I have seen your argument is sloppy.

That's nice. Shame you had to make up the sloppy argument on my behalf.

Ah so it is wrong to be confident in your ability to defend yourself - I see.

Is it? Did I say that?

Strange, because I thought I had said:

Violent crime is not good, and I do understand and acknowledge your right to protect yourself from those who would do you harm

My mistake - I am sure you must know better what I said than I do, and what is literally written above in the post you're nominally replying to.

Sloppy on my part, no doubt.

Also that soft armor is spike rated so it would be protection from pistols 44 mag and under and on top of that being stabbed as firearms are NOT the only threat out there and statistically the most common in crime.

I wear a t-shirt, yet I seem immune to being stabbed or shot despite having lived in a dozen countries. Weird huh? It's almost as if there's some kind of link between the availability of guns and the likelihood of encountering someone pointing a gun at you.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

And it's 'grown up' to believe that you can outdraw a bad guy intent on harming you if he's already pointing a gun at you?

It is more complicated than that as you typically DO NOT draw on the drop. I watch hundreds of self defense videos. Sometimes you actually win even if you do draw on the drop sometimes you don't criminals are notorious poor shots but they are individuals. You watch for an opportunity to where their attention is off you then you draw while at the same time moving and then shooting. We do see videos of this working for people in a defensive shoot.

It's a little boy's fantasy. It's one I hear very often from Americans who fetishize their guns.

Stop ad hom and get to the point. Also this comment is very sloppy it doesn't address the argument and it just makes you look like you don't have any other arguments someone other an insult. Also yes your North Korean argument is sloppy.

I wear a t-shirt, yet I seem immune to being stabbed or shot despite having lived in a dozen countries.

This is a dumb fallacious argument. No one has tried to stab you.

It's almost as if there's some kind of link between the availability of guns and the likelihood of encountering someone pointing a gun at you.

So would you say guns are widely available in Mexico? Keep in mind there is one federally owned and operated gun store in Mexico that you are allowed to buy from. Yet they have a higher gun homicide rate than the U.S.. Also crime has to do with intent as Mexicos gun laws do nothing to reduce gun crime.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

So would you say guns are widely available in Mexico? Keep in mind there is one federally owned and operated gun store in Mexico that you are allowed to buy from. Yet they have a higher gun homicide rate than the U.S.. Also crime has to do with intent as Mexicos gun laws do nothing to reduce gun crime.

Mexico is a whole other story. Their judicial system and police force are far too corrupt to for you to use it to prove your point.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

I wear a t-shirt, yet I seem immune to being stabbed or shot despite having lived in a dozen countries. Weird huh? It's almost as if there's some kind of link between the availability of guns and the likelihood of encountering someone pointing a gun at you.

Probably has a bit to do with how one uses their brain too.