Debate with BroJustin

[nasher168]

This is a debate that went on for about 2 or so days on youtube, between user BroJustin and myself. It ended abruptly, as he stopped replying, and didn't allow my last comment through.

If we have no concept of god, no idea of what it is you feel, then why say such derogatory things about us? If we know nothing else, then why call us satanists?
Surely a good christian should try to educate rather than bashing. Why make out we are all unhappy when most are very content to awe at the universe the way it is?

Jesus, when speaking of your people, the outisders/unsaved, variously called them pigs, dogs, wolves, hypocrites, wicked, whited sepulchres, generation of vipers, and children of the devil. He was not being derogatory, only stating how you look from God's point of view. I don't do defamation either.

NO amount of education will get you to see what we have/can see.

You will never know what happiness is unless you get moved from the family of Satan to the family of God

So how on Earth can a person move from-as you call it-the family of Satan (although I for one do not believe Satan is real at all) if they are not educated?
Presumably you would think of yourself as being in the God family, so why not try and educate?

You begin with a false premsise that what God's people have is a doctrinal/theological/philosop hical position, they don't. They have God, a person.

No amount of education ever makes one a Christian. You must know of people who have studied 'theology' for donkey's years but are not changed from their natural born state to the family of God.

Salvation from sin, and Satan's family is by the sovereign grace and action of God in your life, or it will never happen. It is nothing to with info.

And why do they have God? If no amount of education ever makes one a christian, then what does?

="BroJustin"[God brings them out of the dirt, darkness, and spiritual death that all humans are born into to Himself.

But that means you have to believe in the first place, surely. We don't.

No, God does all the work, including the authoring of saving faith, which is not accessible to anyone naturally.

you mean God is entirely responsible, and it has nothing to do with the person?

Yes. God elects who He is going to save, and has done so from before the foundation of the world. He draws and brings people into the good of what Christ did on the Cross. No one can save themselves. To do so would amount to people adopting themselves into someone else's family. No one is worthy. By grace alone someone is brought to Christ and changed

If it is God and God alone that saves, then surely no-one has any choice in the matter at all. It's just a lottery. Either you were born and destined to be chosen or you were born and destined for hell/separation.
Although I'm having difficulty understanding what you mean by "grace".

. No, not a lottery, but election according to grace. Your name is in the book of life which was written before the foundation of the world. If it is then some time in your life God will bring you to Christ, and you will be born again. This is salvation, but not arrest. You do not have to stay with Christ, and most who begin with Him do not. If your name does not appear you will never be born again. You are already separate.
Grace equals unmeritted favour.

Okay, this is a form of christianity I have never come across before.
Surely it seems a little immoral of God to choose not to give everyone a chance of getting to heaven? I mean, I was never a christian at any point in my life, so presumably you believe that there is no chance of my being "born again".
Obviously the morality of a god has no bearing on their existence, I have other reasons for my disbelief.

I am sorry but you don't understand. 'Getting to Heaven' is a minor part of things.

All human beings are worthy of execution alone, from the moment of conception. If God be pleased to save some and use this evil world to perfect them into the sons and daughters He desires, and not others, that is His right. He OWNS all and everyone.

God has chosen whom He will bring to Christ. You don't know if that is His will in your case or not, and neither do I.

It may be his right, but that does not make it moral. With respect, it seems incredibly barbaric. I have serious doubts that anyone is worthy of execution, let alone everyone on the planet-although my outlook of death is very different to yours.

A quick question: Do you feel God is right to think we all deserve execution?

The problem is your standpoint. You, and everyone in their natural born state, are children of the devil, the enemy of God. That is the reason why they are sent to the lake of fire.

Sure, God will call all of Satan's family.

So you believe that God created everyone, only to force the vast majority to live in eternal torment-through no fault of their own, I might add-yet you are fine with this?

No, I did not say that. God did not make anyone alive on the planet today, and has only made three people through all history. People are conceived and born into the world nothing to do with Him. All are conceived children of the devil. Everyone in Satan's family gets the same fate as their master whom they willingly, naturally, served all their lives.

Sure!

, I misunderstood the first bit, but it staggers me that you can be fine with someone committing a worse atrocity than Hitler, Stalin and all the dictators through history. They all merely killed millions of people. You believe that God tortures literally billions for eternity and have just said that you are fine.

I certainly don't believe that, no!

God acts in righteousness. It is you who is in the wrong camp, not Him. Sure He is your enemy, and you are bound to take the view that He is wrong, as you judge things according to your value system, not His. He is the complete opposite of all you know. By your standards you are right. By His standards He is.

He does NOT torture people. This is straightforward justice.

But I cannot help being in the wrong camp, as said before.
What would you call burning in a lake of fire, if not torture? Even the harshest of punishments dished out by humans don't come close to that.

All humanity was part of Adam when he committed high treason, and all humanity committed high treason in Adam. You are trying absent yourself from your forebears, you cannot do that. Interesting thought though.

Not torture, justice. You just don't see the magnitude of the crime as, if you did, you would perfectly understant. Only God's actual people can see it.

Note: My last comment was not approved, and so the debate was cut short, but I compared the punishment of all humanity for Adam's wrongdoings to punishing all the English for their ancestors' part in the slave trade, or punishing all Germans for World War 2.

 

[DeistPaladin]

Pretty much a demonstration that Calvinism is (1) the most consistent that Christianity can be with the Bible (as much as that's possible) and (2) the most morally bankrupt version of Christianity.

According to this guy:

1. Torture can be a form of justice.
2. It's OK to punish children for the crimes of their parents.

 

[nasher168]

Is that what it's called then. I admit that before now I had never really come across Calvinism.

 

[DeistPaladin]

Is that what it's called then. I admit that before now I had never really come across Calvinism.

OK, disclaimer time. I haven't heard him call himself that yet in any of his videos I've seen but his theology sounds a lot like Calvinism.

The idea is that Yahweh is so omnipotent that everything is predestined to happen including who is saved and who is lost. There are some who are called "the elect" who are destined to be saved. The rest are "objects of wrath" on the day of judgement, apparently to satisfy Yahweh's sadistic glee or something. We're screwed no matter how hard we may try to achieve salvation.

Naturally, there are passages in the Bible that can be interprated either way on this matter. See my online book for more details:

http://godvsthebible.com/node/12#save

My conclusion:

What a spoiled brat Yahweh is! Even if he were real, would he be worthy of worship?

 

[Cafeeine]

Is that what it's called then. I admit that before now I had never really come across Calvinism.

OK, disclaimer time. I haven't heard him call himself that yet in any of his videos I've seen but his theology sounds a lot like Calvinism.

The idea is that Yahweh is so omnipotent that everything is predestined to happen including who is saved and who is lost. There are some who are called "the elect" who are destined to be saved. The rest are "objects of wrath" on the day of judgement, apparently to satisfy Yahweh's sadistic glee or something. We're screwed no matter how hard we may try to achieve salvation.

Naturally, there are passages in the Bible that can be interprated either way on this matter. See my online book for more details:

http://godvsthebible.com/node/12#save

My conclusion:

What a spoiled brat Yahweh is! Even if he were real, would he be worthy of worship?

It's telling that whenever I've spoken to Calvinists, or Calvinist-type believers, they are always sure that they are of the 'Elect', through what they claim is God's grace upon them, but once you talk with them awhile, its their personal conviction that God has transformed them into being what they are. In other words, they have found a doctrine that translates arrogance, extreme elitism and exclusivity as divine providence "and there's nothing you depraved people can do about it, as you can't even realize it"

 

[Giliell]

Wow, what an a...
So, what about free will?
And what about Jesus dying for the sins of mankind?
And how does he know HE is saved?

 

[borrofburi]

Pretty much a demonstration that Calvinism is (1) the most consistent that Christianity can be with the Bible (as much as that's possible) and (2) the most morally bankrupt version of Christianity.

Also the most logically rigid/sound version of christianity: god is all powerful, but he not benevolent, he is a dick. That of course uses language a calvinist would object to, but I am interpreting their linguistics into our own.

Of course, there is one major logical flaw in calvinism, and it comes in the form of this table:

................................................... Free will exists ....... Free will does not exist
I choose to believe in free will's existence ...... Yay! I'm right ......... Then I did not actually make a choice
I choose to believe free will does not exist ...... I am wrong :( .......... Then I did not actually make a choice

That is to say: you can never choose to believe free will does not exist and be correct, for if free will really doesn't exist, then you can't make choices because choices don't exist. Thus, I as a thinking individual must make the choice to believe free will exists.





/calvinist hat on

So, what about free will?

We are free, unfortunately we are all so corrupt (by the fall) that the only choice we will make is one of sin, evil, and corruption. (alternatively some calvinists will simply say free will does not exist at all)

And what about Jesus dying for the sins of mankind?

He didn't, that's a missreading of the text, Jesus only died for the elect.

And how does he know HE is saved?

Uh, depends on what type of calvinist he is, some of which will say they don't know, at least not for certain, but there are signs that they probably are part of the elect, hopefully.

 

[DeistPaladin]

Wow, what an a...
So, what about free will?

That appears NOWHERE in the Bible.

Neither does "age of accountability"

Neither does "life begins at conception"

Neither does "one man and one woman"

Neither does "December 25"

Christians aren't afraid to make stuff up.

 

[TheTruePooka]

Is that what it's called then. I admit that before now I had never really come across Calvinism.

OK, disclaimer time. I haven't heard him call himself that yet in any of his videos I've seen but his theology sounds a lot like Calvinism.

The idea is that Yahweh is so omnipotent that everything is predestined to happen including who is saved and who is lost. There are some who are called "the elect" who are destined to be saved. The rest are "objects of wrath" on the day of judgement, apparently to satisfy Yahweh's sadistic glee or something. We're screwed no matter how hard we may try to achieve salvation.

Naturally, there are passages in the Bible that can be interprated either way on this matter. See my online book for more details:

http://godvsthebible.com/node/12#save

My conclusion:

What a spoiled brat Yahweh is! Even if he were real, would he be worthy of worship?

I asked him if he is a Calvinist as that is the impression I got from what he is saying.

He avoided the question; then again, he has avoided almost every question I have asked him when it comes down to the specifics of his beliefs.

The one thing he states continually is; "He follows none of the existing Christian Sects."

I'm not sure what to make of this fellow. He seems knowledgeable but he refuses to answer any question I ask him about his doctrine or metaphysics with a direct answer. (shrug) I'm about to lose interest and give up.

 

[TheTruePooka]

Nasher168;

I'm in the process of discussing these things in private e-mail with him (been at it for a week now). When he discovered my background, he became a bit more polite and less abrupt.

If you'd like, I can let you know how it goes, as I doubt I'll be doing a video on him.

But I can't promise I'll get anywhere. What I will try to do before he cuts it off is discover which concordance he relies on the most as that would probably give an indication of where he gets his ideas from.

Otherwise... (shrug). I despair to ever find a Christian who will give me straight answers on issues of doctrine or law regarding their beliefs.

I've had ONE successful conversation so far, and that was with a Franciscan Monk (not on youtube). So... we shall see.

 

[Giliell]

Pretty much a demonstration that Calvinism is (1) the most consistent that Christianity can be with the Bible (as much as that's possible) and (2) the most morally bankrupt version of Christianity.

Also the most logically rigid/sound version of christianity: god is all powerful, but he not benevolent, he is a dick. That of course uses language a calvinist would object to, but I am interpreting their linguistics into our own.

Of course, there is one major logical flaw in calvinism, and it comes in the form of this table:

................................................... Free will exists ....... Free will does not exist
I choose to believe in free will's existence ...... Yay! I'm right ......... Then I did not actually make a choice
I choose to believe free will does not exist ...... I am wrong :( .......... Then I did not actually make a choice

That is to say: you can never choose to believe free will does not exist and be correct, for if free will really doesn't exist, then you can't make choices because choices don't exist. Thus, I as a thinking individual must make the choice to believe free will exists.





/calvinist hat on

So, what about free will?

We are free, unfortunately we are all so corrupt (by the fall) that the only choice we will make is one of sin, evil, and corruption. (alternatively some calvinists will simply say free will does not exist at all)

And what about Jesus dying for the sins of mankind?

He didn't, that's a missreading of the text, Jesus only died for the elect.

And how does he know HE is saved?

Uh, depends on what type of calvinist he is, some of which will say they don't know, at least not for certain, but there are signs that they probably are part of the elect, hopefully.

OK, in that case: What do I have to do with all of that and why should I even heed christianity?
Obviously, I'm born evil and go on being evil. There's nothing I can do about it. If I'm going to be saved that's going to happen anyway. So, the logical conclusion is that they simply all shut up. They can make faces and shout "nanananaanaa" on doomsday.

 

[TheTruePooka]

A Calvinist (depending on type) would likely argue that if you are one of the elect, you are predestined to convert. It will happen. Therefore, a person converts and assumes/ hopes they are one of the elect.

Another argument is that the bible is God's Word. Therefore, you should obey it as it is the only true guide to morality and all should aspire to follow it.
Accepting Christ is the only logical choice when faced with these two arguments (assuming you take them at face value).

 

[borrofburi]

OK, in that case: What do I have to do with all of that and why should I even heed christianity?
Obviously, I'm born evil and go on being evil. There's nothing I can do about it. If I'm going to be saved that's going to happen anyway. So, the logical conclusion is that they simply all shut up. They can make faces and shout "nanananaanaa" on doomsday.

I dunno, my calvinisthat doesn't seem to have encountered that scenario before. Pooka gave a few good ones, I can think of ones like you should care because you might be one of the elect and don't know it yet, or he has no clue, it's you who came to talk to him, not he to you.

Also calvinists will argue that Jesus commanded them to evangelize, so they do it based on his commands.

 

[TheTruePooka]

OK, in that case: What do I have to do with all of that and why should I even heed christianity?
Obviously, I'm born evil and go on being evil. There's nothing I can do about it. If I'm going to be saved that's going to happen anyway. So, the logical conclusion is that they simply all shut up. They can make faces and shout "nanananaanaa" on doomsday.

I dunno, my calvinisthat doesn't seem to have encountered that scenario before. Pooka gave a few good ones, I can think of ones like you should care because you might be one of the elect and don't know it yet, or he has no clue, it's you who came to talk to him, not he to you.

Also calvinists will argue that Jesus commanded them to evangelize, so they do it based on his commands.

I'm getting fed up talking to this guy and I'm fast approaching degrees of pissed off that can only be measured with orders of magnitude.

He's not a Calvinist...

Pardon my language, but he's beginning to look like just another Dumbass who thinks he's got a personal hot-line to God. He won't answer a single God Damned question in a straight forward fashion and often picks out the most irrelevant point he can find in my message to avoid doing so. That's if he even answers the question and just doesn't go off spouting who knows what.

It's as if I started playing a CD that speaks about Motorcycle Maintenance, and I tried to have a discussion with it about Car Maintenance. Mostly nonsensical results, but occasionally the appearance of rational discourse.

The best I can guess is his Doctrine consists of a potpourri of whatever he happened to read or hear and decided sounded good to him.

He's one of these 50 year old+ fundamentalists who is using his age to assert that "he knows better than everyone else, especially when it comes to Christ."


I predict an abrupt stop to all communications between us very shortly.

 

[Giliell]

A Calvinist (depending on type) would likely argue that if you are one of the elect, you are predestined to convert. It will happen. Therefore, a person converts and assumes/ hopes they are one of the elect.

Another argument is that the bible is God's Word. Therefore, you should obey it as it is the only true guide to morality and all should aspire to follow it.
Accepting Christ is the only logical choice when faced with these two arguments (assuming you take them at face value).

I s'pose I'm truely lost.
To me, if the result of following the rules is the same as breaking all of them, i.e. eternal torture in hell, I see no reason to follow the rules. If I were chosen I would convert anyway, so why give a damn about the whole thing before?

 

[Zetetic]

Of course, there is one major logical flaw in calvinism, and it comes in the form of this table:

................................................... Free will exists ....... Free will does not exist
I choose to believe in free will's existence ...... Yay! I'm right ......... Then I did not actually make a choice
I choose to believe free will does not exist ...... I am wrong :( .......... Then I did not actually make a choice

That is to say: you can never choose to believe free will does not exist and be correct, for if free will really doesn't exist, then you can't make choices because choices don't exist. Thus, I as a thinking individual must make the choice to believe free will exists.

Well, that doesn't seem totally correct. If you say 'I choose to believe free will does not exist', that is a contradiction, but you can still know that free will does not exist and claim that you do not choose to believe it, you just do. Here is a pretty neat argument I found that relates to this : http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=127525

Supposing determinism is not ruled out, it seems one can make a claim about God as the 'ultimate planner' and invoke a god of the gaps type definition allowing them to state their metaphysical claims as physical claims that are consistent with how we know things work; supposing they are very clever. This has been done in the past by Scientists who hold one faith or another. This is kind of beside the point though, I suppose.

 

[DeistPaladin]

Supposing determinism is not ruled out, it seems one can make a claim about God as the 'ultimate planner' and invoke a god of the gaps type definition allowing them to state their metaphysical claims as physical claims that are consistent with how we know things work; supposing they are very clever. This has been done in the past by Scientists who hold one faith or another. This is kind of beside the point though, I suppose.

Determinism really isn't related to the issue of whether or not there is a god.

Theistic Determinism: Providence (to sum it up in a word)
Atheistic Determinism: Everything is the inevitable consequence of everything already in motion.
Theistic Free Will: "God doesn't want automatons"
Atheistic Free Will: "There is no fate but that which we make for ourselves"

 

[TheTruePooka]

A Calvinist (depending on type) would likely argue that if you are one of the elect, you are predestined to convert. It will happen. Therefore, a person converts and assumes/ hopes they are one of the elect.

Another argument is that the bible is God's Word. Therefore, you should obey it as it is the only true guide to morality and all should aspire to follow it.
Accepting Christ is the only logical choice when faced with these two arguments (assuming you take them at face value).

I s'pose I'm truely lost.
To me, if the result of following the rules is the same as breaking all of them, i.e. eternal torture in hell, I see no reason to follow the rules. If I were chosen I would convert anyway, so why give a damn about the whole thing before?

The problem with that statement is it presupposes that you actually know if you are one of the elect. We don't.

Yes, it does appear to make no sense. On the surface it may appear that there is no reason to change your behavior since you are already of the elect... or not.

A Calvinist would probably argue that if you are of the elect, then your behavior will reflect that in your obeying of God's Word. So many Calvinists would obey God's Word to prove they are of the elect. It becomes something of a vicious, paranoid cycle and from a psychological perspective, this form of Christianity can be one of the most damaging to the psyche.

Imagine if every time you sinned, the fear that you just may not be one of the elect pops into your mind? (shudder)

 

[5810Singer]

Screw BroJustin's religion, I don't believe that religion is his main focus anyway.

I'm quite convinced that BroJustin is a total bigot who is just hugging himself with glee that he's found the ultimate exclusive club to which he can refuse people admission.

I imagine he's a racist, a sexist, he doesn't like kids, he thinks rock music is from the devil, he thinks left wing politics are from the devil, he thinks right wing politics is probably from the devil too, but it chimes with his bigotry better so he's more forgiving, etc, etc........

I've been encountering this type of big-boned, tomato-nosed, condescending-moron-with-a-superiority-complex my whole life, and all they want to do is to tell the human race that it's a piece of shit.

FUCK BROJUSTIN AND ALL HIS KIND TO HELL AND BACK!!!

On the bright side, people of BroJustin's type are slightly worse at attracting people to Christianity than stomach cancer.

Seriously guys, don't let this guy get under your skin, arguing with him is a waste of time, and ultimately his "religious message" isn't designed to attract new followers, it's designed to make him (and only him) feel important, and so that he can pour contempt on his fellow man.