Brexit is coming

[australopithecus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37677973

A Conservative councillor in Surrey, Christian Holliday, has launched a petition calling for support of UK membership of the European Union to be declared treason.

The petition was added to the UK government and Parliament websites on 15 October.
If it attracts 100,000 signatures, Parliament will be asked to consider debating it. So far, more than 1,200 people have signed it.

The petition calls on Westminster to ensure the "Treason Felony Act be amended to include the following offences:

"To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support [the] UK becoming a member of the European Union.
"To conspire with foreign powers to make the UK, or part of the UK, become a member of the EU."

It goes on to say:

"It is becoming clear that many politicians and others are unwilling to accept the democratic decision of the British people to leave the EU.
"Brexit must not be put at risk in the years and decades ahead."
The measure would take effect the day the UK leaves the EU.

Well it's nice to see sensible discussion can still be had.

 

[tuxbox]

What are the objections to leaving the E.U.?

 

[australopithecus]

Depends who you ask. For me personally, it's regressive. We live in a world where, not just economically, but socially, we are more interdependent than ever. I see nothing to gain by promoting division and an importance on national borders over cooperation and mutual beneficial relationships, especially at a time where there are so many other forces looking to causes division.

I identify as European. It's ingrained in who I see myself as. The Brexit vote, for me, stole a little bit of that identity away from me. I know I'll still be European, it's tarnished by British nationalism now. Little Englanders more concerned with not little them foreign folk in, rather than humanism.

The EU is a bloated, flawed, beuacratic, unwieldy beast, but it's still better than the rise of the far right in Europe, looking to make people turn on each other because of the bit of land they fell out their mothers on, or what religion they adhere to.


Then you have things like the free market, which allows for a great deal of trading freedom. Standardised products that are safe to use regardless of where in Europe they're made. Free movement of people, which I think is great.

tl;dr

Less borders good, more borders bad.

 

[Laurens]

The Tories are going for hard Brexit because that is what the people voted for... what about the fucking sizable proportion of people who voted to remain?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Prolescum]

What are the objections to leaving the E.U.?

How would you react to your citizenship being revoked because the half of your population, through no fault of their own being thralls of Rupert Murdoch, voted for it?

All western governments are unwieldy, undemocratic cesspools of sewer sauce, and the EU is no different. Leaving wasn't a reasoned decision; it wasn't even an ideological one. It was simply that the British working classes are completely unrepresented politically, and have been for a very long time, which inevitably led to a nationalistic outpouring in the one decision they were given that would have a direct effect. Add scapegoats (Eastern Europeans), job done.

America is going through exactly the same process now, and it is the effect of deregulation, and the attempted takeover of Western English-speaking societies by narrow corporate interests. Our civilization is broken, and this will only increase the burden of living on the poor.



/rant over

 

[Deleted member 619]

What are the objections to leaving the E.U.?

I blogged about this just prior to the referendum:

http://reciprocity-giving-something-back.blogspot.com/2016/06/first-do-no-harm.html

 

[Laurens]

What are the objections to leaving the E.U.?

I might have voted to leave had it been under a different premise. Because I don't think it is democratic to have to answer to unelected figures in Brussels.

However in this instance the campaign was riding off the back of xenophobia. People wanting go get rid of foreigners. In order to follow through on this we will almost certainly have to leave the single market and plunge into recession.

Also given that the governing party are notoriously anti workers rights, all for increasing income inequality, and privatising national services we can assume that their reasons for wanting to leave the EU are not the same as a socialist like myself. Voting Leave under the Tories is a ticket to dystopia. The poor are going to get hit hard and immigrants are going to be marginalized.

If we'd have had a socialist government proposing that if we can't get some democratic reforms in the EU then we ought to leave, but negotiate to retain access to the single market then I would have voted differently. As it stands we're pretty fucking up shit creek. We haven't left yet and confidence in the pound has plummeted because no one actually knows what the fucking plan is. Its a disaster that was handled poorly from the outset.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Surprise, surprise - not.

PM loses 432 - 202 - by more than 200 votes: worst defeat ever by a UK government.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Visaki]

Greetings,

Surprise, surprise - not.

PM loses 432 - 202 - by more than 200 votes: worst defeat ever by a UK government.

Kindest regards,

James

"The PM saw off a bid to remove her government from power by 325 to 306 votes, the day after her plan for leaving the EU was rejected."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46901217

Funny thing is that they reject her deal, but they don't seem to be in any hurry to oust her. This might be the first time in history there isn't a struggle for the PMship, but people are actively trying not to become the next PM. You got to respect May for sticking to the position that seems to be political suicide, I'd guess just for the sense of duty.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

It was expected that the DUP and rebel Conservatives would support her.

Hopefully, they'll choose either the EEA ("Norway") option solves the border issue - or the "Canada" option as a solution to the impasse.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[WarK]

Greetings,

It was expected that the DUP and rebel Conservatives would support her.

Hopefully, they'll choose either the EEA ("Norway") option solves the border issue - or the "Canada" option as a solution to the impasse.

Kindest regards,

James

Last time I heard, Norway was against "Norway" option. I don't know what's the Canada option.

Anyway, Norway option is like being in the EU but not having a say in the laws passed by the EU parliament. That's not what the British voted for, is it?

I'm curious what will happen to Northern Ireland if there's no-deal brexit.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

If the UK crashes out of the EU, then it will mean a "hard" border between the Rep. of Ireland and NI - which will be disastrous for both. There don't seem to be any real plans in place here if that happens.

Since 1921 the demographics in NI have been shifting from a 2:1 majority in favour of Protestants (Loyalists to the British crown) to a slight majority today (48:45, with the rest neither) [Source]. It's a given that this trend will continue until the Catholics (Nationalists/Republicans) will be in the ascendancy setting the scene for a referendum on a united Ireland.

Needless to say, a "hard" border will destroy the logical conclusion to this trend, and may well result in the renewal of terrorist activities: certainly, the presence of police checkpoints on either side of the border will become likely targets by both loyalist and republican paramilitary groups.

Not to mention the effects of such a border on trade, travel, etc.

The "Norway" and "Canada" options are explained here.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Sparhafoc]

Funny thing is that they reject her deal, but they don't seem to be in any hurry to oust her. This might be the first time in history there isn't a struggle for the PMship, but people are actively trying not to become the next PM. You got to respect May for sticking to the position that seems to be political suicide, I'd guess just for the sense of duty.

Old lame duck is easier to stalk than a fresh-beaked new one.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Last time I heard, Norway was against "Norway" option. I don't know what's the Canada option.

Anyway, Norway option is like being in the EU but not having a say in the laws passed by the EU parliament. That's not what the British voted for, is it?

I'm curious what will happen to Northern Ireland if there's no-deal brexit.

I'd say it's fairly simple: borders - physical ones, with immigration, customs etc.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Greetings,

If the UK crashes out of the EU, then it will mean a "hard" border between the Rep. of Ireland and NI - which will be disastrous for both. There don't seem to be any real plans in place here if that happens.

Since 1921 the demographics in NI have been shifting from a 2:1 majority in favour of Protestants (Loyalists to the British crown) to a slight majority today (48:45, with the rest neither) [Source]. It's a given that this trend will continue until the Catholics (Nationalists/Republicans) will be in the ascendancy setting the scene for a referendum on a united Ireland.

Needless to say, a "hard" border will destroy the logical conclusion to this trend, and may well result in the renewal of terrorist activities: certainly, the presence of police checkpoints on either side of the border will become likely targets by both loyalist and republican paramilitary groups.

It would certainly contravene the 1998 Good Friday Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement) with all the fall-out that potentially entails.

Just one ball of shit currently being juggled - gotta keep em in the air, or someone might actually have to clean up this mess!

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

For anyone who's still confused about what may happen, here's an interesting and informative discussion with the Irish Times journalist, Fintan O'Toole, from Oct 2018:



Kindest regards,

James