Bill Maher invites guests to talk about The "lab" origins of SARS-CoV-2 - aka "The coronavirus"

[Led Zeppelin]

By linking unsourced news pieces that contain assertions

It's not a given.

The sources you give me are unsourced news articles, and are flatly contradicted by the sources in the video, such as the WHO communications.

There's no doubt that China downplayed the danger, but there are shades of the McCarthy mind-virus at play in the way people are talking about China. The worst offenders for downplaying the danger, of course, were Drumpf and BoZo.

Alright. I just hope that somebody, somewhere, is doing something to keep this from happening again.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

No one can 'know' this absent investigation.

Alright. Then probably some of my thinking is wrong.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Alright. I just hope that somebody, somewhere, is doing something to keep this from happening again.

The actual problem is that credible people with relevant expertise have been warning of this for decades. We were insufficiently prepared despite governments being appraised of the possibility.

Worse, some governments actively rejected scientific knowledge and consensus. The Trump administration, for example, disbanded the NSC pandemic unit in 2018 while also making budget cuts to the CDC. When morons like this get in power in democracies, they can do a lot of damage in a very short period of time. What can we do? We deserve the governments we elect.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

The actual problem is that credible people with relevant expertise have been warning of this for decades. We were insufficiently prepared despite governments being appraised of the possibility.

Worse, some governments actively rejected scientific knowledge and consensus. The Trump administration, for example, disbanded the NSC pandemic unit in 2018 while also making budget cuts to the CDC. When morons like this get in power in democracies, they can do a lot of damage in a very short period of time. What can we do? We deserve the governments we elect.

Right. But I will disagree that we deserve the governments we elect. Personally, I don't always think democracy is a good idea. But besides that, I think we all at least deserve elected officials who do not shirk the basic responsiblities of the office they were elected to and then blame the public when things dont go right.

The idea of any systemic brutality concerning the US police force is a perfect example of this. There is not enough information readily available to the public to know if police enforcement is less brutal in one year or in one place compared to another(I strongly suspect police enforcement in the US is overly brutal, but how can I prove it?). Adding race to this equation only makes it more unknowable. IT IS THE EXACT JOB of a mayor or governor to provide oversight and policies concerning police procedure, to ensure our rights are not being violated. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN DO THIS. They have all the info and the public has almost none. So what do they do? They throw there hands up in the air, pretend they just found out about it yesterday and then accuse the public of being racist. Ahh ok, thanks.

I think sort of the same thing is happening with the coronavirus situation. Why would they not completely close borders before demanding the public to close their restaurants for 1 year?

Im sorry if I have said something stupid here. I highly value your criticism.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

There is not enough information readily available to the public to know if police enforcement is less brutal in one year or in one place compared to another(I strongly suspect police enforcement in the US is overly brutal, but how can I prove it?)

How many youtube videos of the police slaughtering unarmed black men do you want? I think this year there have already been 3 or 4 clear cut excecutions.
Police brutality in the US is no secret at all, much like tax evasion.

And as far as the Corona response is concerned, here is what you do, if you are the stupid one in class: You just cheat off the smart kid that did his homework. In this case Taiwan, Japan or South Korea. Problem with the US is ... they try to reinvent the wheel and do not aknowledge that other countries exist they could cheat off.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

How many youtube videos of the police slaughtering unarmed black men do you want?

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Your point honestly does not matter, when you assert complete and utter drivel.

The US policeforce is brutal, racist and ... plain evil at this point. There is no shadow of the doubt about that. And if you need some more convincing, I am more than happy to link you the video evidence for it .. so you do not have to "suspect" anymore.

 

[Nesslig20]

There's no doubt that China downplayed the danger, but there are shades of the McCarthy mind-virus at play in the way people are talking about China. The worst offenders for downplaying the danger, of course, were Drumpf and BoZo.

To me the way Chinese government initially responded to the virus is little different than how the US government responded initially. It's all okay, nothing to see here.......whoops....

Shouldnt they have known right when they had the virus sequenced that it was Sars-like and likely human to human transmission was happening?

No, there are lot's of Coronaviruses that are circulating in bats that are related to SARS viruses, but most of them cannot infect humans or at the very least spread effectively among the human population.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Right. But I will disagree that we deserve the governments we elect.

We elect them - it's hard to put responsibility elsewhere. Sure, our choices may be limited and poor, but that's still down to us when anyone can be a representative, yet we keep letting the venal and stupid through.

Personally, I don't always think democracy is a good idea.

As Churchill said - it's the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Democracy's core flaw is that it relies on an informed electorate, and that's not working out so well.

But besides that, I think we all at least deserve elected officials who do not shirk the basic responsiblities of the office they were elected to and then blame the public when things dont go right.

I agree that should be what we get, that's the ideal... and I don't want to say that no elected official meets their obligations as many do... just not as many as those who are venal or stupid. Socially and politically, we reward the kind of behavior that makes a person 'powerful' and also largely unfit for office.

The idea of any systemic brutality concerning the US police force is a perfect example of this. There is not enough information readily available to the public to know if police enforcement is less brutal in one year or in one place compared to another

I do think the data is there: all manner of data is collected about law-enforcement - I just don't think people are interested unless or until it affects them.

(I strongly suspect police enforcement in the US is overly brutal, but how can I prove it?).

I don't think you need to prove it, but you can certainly point to numerous examples of extreme police brutality that don't occur in other nations. Like just a couple of days ago when an Arkansas officer used a pit stop manoeuver flipping out a car at high speed - the driver was a pregnant woman on her way home who intended to pull over but was driving (as she's meant to do) to the next safe space to stop.

Adding race to this equation only makes it more unknowable.

I don't think it makes it at all more unknowable, I think there's ample data to look at this comparatively, and I think there are so many examples now you'd have to be covering your ears and eyes not to have noticed.

IT IS THE EXACT JOB of a mayor or governor to provide oversight and policies concerning police procedure, to ensure our rights are not being violated. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN DO THIS.

There are a few more factors than this, some of which are systemic and outside the power of a mayor, and maybe even a governor. For example, extending "qualified immunity" to the police has proved disastrous - it's like we forget that the police aren't meant to take part in the 'judge, jury, executioner' components of the justice system - they're meant to bring people in to face the justice system, and to keep them safe throughout.

They have all the info and the public has almost none. So what do they do? They throw there hands up in the air, pretend they just found out about it yesterday and then accuse the public of being racist. Ahh ok, thanks.

That goes back to the top of the discussion: we elected these chumps, so we have to elect someone better.

Of course, it's not so easy as we also need sufficient numbers of our fellows to understand that there is a problem, and that the problem can be addressed through X and Y, and that we need to elect someone not because they're rich or handsome or because they publicly hump the flag - but because they understand the danger to citizens and are intent on doing something about it.

Good luck, is mostly what I have to say there. That informed electorate seems the most idealistic of notions.

I think sort of the same thing is happening with the coronavirus situation. Why would they not completely close borders before demanding the public to close their restaurants for 1 year?

Well, for one thing, those restaurants wouldn't have much to sell if the borders were completely closed. Suffice it to say that it's tricky to do - it's actually more important to be able to track and trace, to oblige incomers to isolate, rather than to completely shut off the flow of entrants.

Meanwhile, having 300,000 citizens wandering around in close proximity to one and other is guaranteed to make the virus take root in the population, so social distancing was and is extremely effective. Some businesses can't compete in such an environment, and I feel for the people who lose out financially because of this, but their livelihoods are predicated on a healthy citizenry, so when their business model is inappropriate for the situation and can actually result in the virus spreading further and more efficiently, then their business model is contextually flawed and will fail in that environment. It's harsh to see all the local shops closed up for good, but it's very hard to see how they could've been saved.

Im sorry if I have said something stupid here. I highly value your criticism.

No, you don't need to worry about that. I'll tell you when I think you're saying something stupid!

 

[Deleted member 42253]

I do think the data is there: all manner of data is collected about law-enforcement - I just don't think people are interested unless or until it affects them.

Nope, the US police actually does not keep track of that. But some citizens do, one has created a database of violent incidents by ... going through news alerts.
Which just goes to show, how bad the situation is.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Nope, the US police actually does not keep track of that. But some citizens do, one has created a database of violent incidents by ... going through news alerts.
Which just goes to show, how bad the situation is.

That's not a serious response.

There is factually all manner of data about law enforcement, for example, the number of arrests, the reasons for arrest, the outcomes of arrest. There is oodles of data available to the public and to public investigation.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Let me clarify then:
No government agency, nor the police itself, are keeping track of how many people are killed by the police in the US. They are not tracking police misconduct either and are even expunging records on request(By the offender).
There is no source for reliable, first hand data on the mayhem the police is causing in the US. It is really just put together 2nd hand by tracking news articles and freedom of information request.

The uncounted: why the US can't keep track of people killed by police

After a year of high-profile police killings, calls for a national database have gained traction. But how would that work? Tom McCarthy investigates the challenges for law enforcement and government officials alike

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sparhafoc]

That's more specific - I think some of the problems therein are that states have so much latitude and independence, a general culture of extolling the virtue of small federal government, and the militarization of the police. The last in particular is what I think is so dangerous, and not just in the hypothetical but taking a daily toll, and the way officers are trained isn't to protect and serve, but to assume that everyone they confront has a gun and is thereby a threat they can/should neutralize. Systemic racism - not individual officer racism - nestles amidst all this resulting in non-whites bearing a continued brunt of this form of attention. It takes police brutality against whites before some sections of society even notice.

One small positive step Biden's taken is to bring DOJ oversight of police departments back, oversight that Trump curtailed. The police have to be policed, and they have to be demilitarized including taking away training requirements that instill that militarized mind-set: citizens are not the enemy.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

There are a few more factors than this, some of which are systemic and outside the power of a mayor, and maybe even a governor. For example, extending "qualified immunity" to the police has proved disastrous - it's like we forget that the police aren't meant to take part in the 'judge, jury, executioner' components of the justice system - they're meant to bring people in to face the justice system, and to keep them safe throughout.

True that! I like your way of thinking.

Sorry I went a bit off topic. Thank you as well, Nesslig.

 

[Nesslig20]

I find it amusing how the conversation has changed over time, but I certainly don't mind.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

I find it amusing how the conversation has changed over time, but I certainly don't mind.

Well, I dont imagine myself being any smarter than the average guy. I think if much of the news media, along with the powers that be, would have just addressed certain questions about Covid19 in a normal and helpful manner, like how you and some others have then I think a lot of the conspiracy bullshit could have been avoided. Instead, the whole thing seems to have been a giant shit show.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

@Led Zeppelin Nothing to do with your intelligence, just comes down to the country you are living in and the culture you grew up in.
And, most importantly, the media.

Try to remember what Trump and other US officials were allowed to say on air ... and now compare it to Italy:


Nevermind that Italian government offcials actually .. you know .. worked on the issue.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Fascisti

 

[Sparhafoc]

Instead, the whole thing seems to have been a giant shit show.

I'm not one for drama or lofty pronouncements... but I am deadly serious when I say that there is a concerted effort in the world at the moment to have unreasoned, absurd bullshit not just elevated to parity with evidence-based, rational, competent expertise... but to frame that expertise as 'fake'.

It's not just happening in English - I am seeing it here in Thai too.

The internet, as an environment in which memes (ideas) struggle to spread, lends undue weight and significance to contemptible morons whose mad gibbering most people would avoid in real life.

There is a fake news, but it's not the traditional news, its those who profit from undermining peoples' trust in traditional and credible sources of information.

 

[Nesslig20]

I'm not one for drama or lofty pronouncements... but I am deadly serious when I say that there is a concerted effort in the world at the moment to have unreasoned, absurd bullshit not just elevated to parity with evidence-based, rational, competent expertise... but to frame that expertise as 'fake'.

It's not just happening in English - I am seeing it here in Thai too.

The internet, as an environment in which memes (ideas) struggle to spread, lends undue weight and significance to contemptible morons whose mad gibbering most people would avoid in real life.

There is a fake news, but it's not the traditional news, its those who profit from undermining peoples' trust in traditional and credible sources of information.