Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writings?

[CVBrassil]

I am looking for a good book of collected writings of Thomas Paine, does anyone have any good suggestions?

 

[Aught3]

I just ordered this book a couple of days ago hasn't arrived yet but it seems like a good compilation.

 

[obsidianavenger]

not a book, but these are his 4 main essays (treatises?) strange word...

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

I just finished reading Common Sense and the thing that struck me was the use of religion and scripture in Paine's argument. I wonder if this is done to appeal to a wider audience or he changes his mind on the relevance of Christianity before writing Age of Reason.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Careful on the book you ordered. I ordered a compilation of his writings before and actually had to sent it back. The works, particularly Age of Reason, were heavily edited. A lot of important things were missing and it really left me a bit disheartened. The internet is the best way to get the whole of the text.

http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Thanks, but too late for the warning now :lol:

I know The Rights of Man was edited but that's okay it's quite long anyway. Plus, what I really wanted was Common Sense and Age of Reason - it just happened that this version was the cheapest.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Mhm, those were the two I wanted and I ended up rather pissed off over the fact that Age of Reason had all the good blasphemous bits removed from it :lol: Either way, he gets his message across rather well

 

[DeistPaladin]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

I just finished reading Common Sense and the thing that struck me was the use of religion and scripture in Paine's argument. I wonder if this is done to appeal to a wider audience or he changes his mind on the relevance of Christianity before writing Age of Reason.

Is it possible Thomas Paine was an Ex-Christian, that Common Sense was written while he was still a Christian and he later renounced his beliefs in scripture? Anyone know his bio? Yeah, I know, I should.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Done with The Crisis, at least my abridged version of it. Much less reference to Christianity - only a couple of allusions really. Paine seems to take more of a deist stance, perhaps he lost his faith during the war? Rights of Man is up next.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Keep me updated, I'm interested in what you think about it

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Rights of Man is fairly long but conveniently it is split into two sections and I've finished the first. This is Paine's defense of the French revolution and he's responding to an attack launched by an Englishman named Burke. I felt that the argument itself suffered from Paine's need to constantly refer to Burke's apparently awful work but there will still some excellent sections on political theory and the superiority of the French republic over the English monarchy.

The religious aspects were also quite interesting. There was still some deist references with the rights of man coming from the creator and allusions to the story of Adam and Eve. I felt these latter points could have been made without religious wording and I got the sense that Paine was aware of that when he wrote it. Rights of Man also contains some mild anti-clericalism concerning how much wealth is tied up in the church and how many clerics demanded the right to a separate house in parliament. There is also a dig at the divine right of kings to rule, but overall there is much more criticism of the nobility (or no-ability as Paine calls them) than the church.

A couple of quotes to share:

It requires but a very small glance of thought to perceive that although laws made in one generation often continue in force through succeeding generations, yet they continue to derive their force from the consent of the living. A law not repealed continues in force, not because it cannot be repealed, but because it is not repealed; and the non-repealing passes for consent.

One of the continual choruses of Mr. Burke's book is "Church and State." He does not mean some one particular church, or some one particular state, but any church and state; and he uses the term as a general figure to hold forth the political doctrine of always uniting the church with the state in every country, and he censures the National Assembly for not having done this in France. Let us bestow a few thoughts on this subject.

All religions are in their nature kind and benign, and united with principles of morality. They could not have made proselytes at first by professing anything that was vicious, cruel, persecuting, or immoral. Like everything else, they had their beginning; and they proceeded by persuasion, exhortation, and example. How then is it that they lose their native mildness, and become morose and intolerant?

It proceeds from the connection which Mr. Burke recommends. By engendering the church with the state, a sort of mule-animal, capable only of destroying, and not of breeding up, is produced, called the Church established by Law. It is a stranger, even from its birth, to any parent mother, on whom it is begotten, and whom in time it kicks out and destroys.

The inquisition in Spain does not proceed from the religion originally professed, but from this mule-animal, engendered between the church and the state. The burnings in Smithfield proceeded from the same heterogeneous production; and it was the regeneration of this strange animal in England afterwards, that renewed rancour and irreligion among the inhabitants, and that drove the people called Quakers and Dissenters to America. Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is alway the strongly-marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity. In America, a catholic priest is a good citizen, a good character, and a good neighbour; an episcopalian minister is of the same description: and this proceeds independently of the men, from there being no law-establishment in America.

 

[CVBrassil]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

I ended up getting the Library of America one -> http://www.loa.org/volume.jsp?RequestID=95

It is very all-inclusive, it has a ton. About 800 pages worth of actual material from Paine, plus a handy index to lead you right where you want to, if you are looking for his opinions on a specific topic. One of you said that various compilations you have found have been very edited; from what I can tell this one isn't really changed all that much.

As for his religious views, I think it is very possible he was an ex-Christian by the time of Age of Reason, but then again many deists refer to Christianity a lot in their writings, so who knows.

 

[DeistPaladin]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

As for his religious views, I think it is very possible he was an ex-Christian by the time of Age of Reason, but then again many deists refer to Christianity a lot in their writings, so who knows.

Cynics might say they were smart enough to do so. The practice of burning people at the stake became much less common by the time of the Age of Enlightenment but it was still practiced, however infrequently, until the end of the 18th century. I was shocked to find this out, btw. I had such a romanticized view of the era of great minds in powdered wigs who rejected the barbarism of the Dark Ages in favor of rational discussion of science, philosophy or the rights of humanity (cue the Mozart or Bach playing in the background). Evidently, the light hadn't spread to all corners of Europe and the Americas.

Deism, at least as we understand the term today, evolved as the Church's authority diminished. The earliest philosophers who called themselves deists in the 16th century still accepted the divinity of Jesus (or at least were smart enough to not publicly deny it). The intent was not to challenge Christianity but rather soften the austere god of the Bible and bring him more in line with recent discoveries in science.

Newton represent another step in that progression. He arguably was more unitarian than deist (or at least that's how I see it). He rejected the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus but still held the Bible as a source to understand God.

The Age of Reason is the first publication that I'm aware of which bravely rejects the Bible in its entirety.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Part Deux read. Pretty much a waste of time contains many good arguments on the virtues of representative democracy and against the vices of monarchy. Unfortunately, this is kind of old news to me. Age of Reason up next, looking forward to it.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Thomas Paine was definitely not a Christian :shock: It's was quite a shocking read considering Age of Reason was written in 1794. Paine basically says that miracles and prophesy are all religion has to prove itself and goes into the reasons why these are not sufficient. He criticises Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as being mutually exclusive and corruptions of the word of God, whom he says would never dictate a faulty book to faulty humans. Finally, Paine gives strong hints that he is a Deist with the only word of God being the creation we behold and outlines his ethical stance which states we must treat each other and animals in the same way God did when he created everything for us.

Overall, many of the arguments against religion are well thought out and still valid today, but I don't buy his personification of a necessary first cause. Worthy reading for any atheist.

Agrarian Justice is the last in my compilation.

 

[Durakken]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Thomas Paine was definitely not a Christian :shock: It's was quite a shocking read considering Age of Reason was written in 1794. Paine basically says that miracles and prophesy are all religion has to prove itself and goes into the reasons why these are not sufficient. He criticises Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as being mutually exclusive and corruptions of the word of God, whom he says would never dictate a faulty book to faulty humans. Finally, Paine gives strong hints that he is a Deist with the only word of God being the creation we behold and outlines his ethical stance which states we must treat each other and animals in the same way God did when he created everything for us.

Overall, many of the arguments against religion are well thought out and still valid today, but I don't buy his personification of a necessary first cause. Worthy reading for any atheist.

Agrarian Justice is the last in my compilation.

David Hume <--bitch slapped christianity in the 1740s/50s by making the Catholic Church say there is no such thing as a miracle.

He also was DesCartes' rival.

This rivalry is pretty apparent that it held both parties back as you see in their works a argument that leads up to something that they suddenly jump away from when they realize it supports their rival...

This was realized by Kant who synthesized the two philosophers into the general world view that most of the world holds today.

He was a large influence in Paine's work ^.^

 

[Andiferous]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

David Hume <--bitch slapped christianity in the 1740s/50s by making the Catholic Church say there is no such thing as a miracle.

He also was DesCartes' rival.

In my opinion, David Hume is worth any ten other philosophers.

That might include myself, though... so feel free to prove me wrong...

 

[Durakken]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

David Hume <--bitch slapped christianity in the 1740s/50s by making the Catholic Church say there is no such thing as a miracle.

He also was DesCartes' rival.

In my opinion, David Hume is worth any ten other philosophers.

That might include myself, though... so feel free to prove me wrong...

Personally I feel superior to most philosophers. i have the benefit of their ideas, and maybe they would be superior to me now, but I am pretty sure I am the greatest philosopher of all time at the moment ^.^ Yeah... I know... but considering i came up with almost everything I have ever read from philosophers years ago when i was less than 1/3 the age when they generally started writing at... I think I'm justified enough, call me what you will. I may think whatever I shall... besides, I'm alive and their dead, if i'm not better than they are then the human race as failed.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Anyone know of a good assortment of Thomas Paine's writi

Finished Agrarian Justice, it was brief and contained Paine's proposal for a welfare system to help out those in need. Similar to some of the arguments I mentioned earlier this seemed a bit like old news to me even as I realise poverty was probably much more problematic in Paine's society.

Well that's it for Thomas Paine, was a bit of a mission but I think it was worth it - especially if you are interested in the histories of the 'twin' French and American revolutions from someone who lived through both. If you are just going to read one go for Age of Reason, not exactly the best arguments against God but an interesting perspective on atheism in the 18th century.