• Welcome to League Of Reason Forums! Please read the rules before posting.
    If you are willing and able please consider making a donation to help with site overheads.
    Donations can be made via here

Pipe-Dream Legislation

arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
So, nothing. And since this anecdote is the only thing you offered up for any of the citations I actually asked for, I will take it that you actually have nothing for any of my requests.


You do realize that no test is 100%. Why you think this amounts to a rebuttal is beyond me.
"...citation is a reference to the source of information used in your research. Any time you directly quote, paraphrase or summarize the essential elements of someone else's idea in your work..."

So basically a citation is X person conveyed X and I agree. If you want specific citations are research from specific sources then you should be more specific.

Capture.PNG

Much lower than 100% and frankly a little better in terms of a coin flip is not something I would rely on.
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
Yes there is - as the cited source indicates.

I'm not being disingenuous - I'm arguing that there are laws regarding noise throughout the day and night. In contrast, you claimed that "nothing would happen" - clearly not the case if you exceed the noise levels at any time of day or night.

Acceptable noise levels may vary by day or night and/or area but they are applicable throughout the 24-hour cycle.

If the noise you make - whether through loud music, working on your house, or mowing your lawn - exceeds the acceptable level for that time period and/or area then you'll be in breach of the ordinances, and be warned for doing so.
1) The cited source is not federal law.
2) The cited source is not in a state where I live therefore it doesn't apply to me.
3) That disorderly conduct statute isn't even directly quoted in the source and so you have to believe in the interpretation of the website.
4) That is up to the discretion of the police being sent to that area again most times for a call of service police are not sent for these small time events.

No even if you were to look up noise ordinances they usually apply a time range.

No they are not as the law will say when they are active and at what noise level. They also do not apply under public celebration and vary wildly between states, counties, and municipalities.

There are commercial ranges in my state that have firearms being shot 6 out of 7 days a week, That very same range rents literal machine guns. A gunshot is well over 80 db.

The fact is that you are misrepresenting this as the laws vary wildly and depend on the consistent enforcement which does not happen in reality.
Then where's the conflict?
That ISN'T allowed which is the conflict. Both are violations.
Does this mean you'll wait until the number of people killed by CoViD exceeds those killed by vehicles?

Number of Americans killed by vehicles per year: 32,850 (90 per day) [1]
Number of Americans killed by CoViD-19 - and counting (just over 1 year): over 900,000. [2]

And the latter figure doesn't include those who've suffered permanent effects - neurological damage, blood cell damage, etc. If the blood cell damage is passed on, this could become a health problem similar to sickle-cell with anaemia side-effects.

Is this yet another "lazy argument"?
One is a hard count and the other is an ESTIMATE.

My argument is vehicles involved in KILLINGS not wounding therefore damage is moot.

Covid does target and is spread more easily to people with prior conditions. If they don't have those conditions or be of those common ages of catching Covid then they are not under significant danger of catching Covid and having symptoms in order to be killed.

There have been people with life threatening ailments and then caught Corona so I find statistics to be unreliable due to the fact of:
Did the original serious ailment they had already kill them and was just marked Corona virus death in order to receive more funding?
Did Corona actually kill them?

The very fact that statistics vary wildly, the testing is not very accurate and the locals attempting to get federal funding claiming more Corona deaths is very suspect.

Yes I would consider that argument lazy because statistics are not very accurate in this regard. I find vehicular deaths to be far easier to trace as it involves a vehicle and not something as complicated as ailments in the human body for a major part that the medical professionals still don't fully understand and the ailment itself is changing.
How do you know you're not infected? You could be asymptomatic.

You only accept what you can see, even though it's all around you. And armour doesn't give you total protection - if somebody shoots you anywhere else, you're going to be injured, if not killed. Vaccination gives you full-body protection.

And I'd like to see a citation for you're implied claim that the violent crime rate exceeds CoViD-19 cases in your area.
If Corona goes against a mask it still has a better chance of getting through the mask through a variety of reasons compared to a caliber that an armor is rated to stop. One is inherently more reliable than the other in their intended use.

What implication? If it is an implication I would have to know exactly what I said in order to know an implication I am not aware of correct?
So, yet another lazy argument.

And CoViD-19 doesn't have a cure - all we have are vaccines (prevention).

People can still die from it despite being vaccinated - and there are now what are being referred to as "breakthrough" cases: where people are catching Delta after being vaccinated. Although vaccines don't prevent you getting it, the concern is that if they develop full CoViD-19 then the vaccines won't create a "fire-break", and will have to be reworked.
Covid has natural cure. Assuming the human body is strong enough eventually you will get rid of Covid in practical terms in having no symptoms and in the technical when you repeatedly test negative and have no symptoms.
Could you provide a citation for this claim about "worse symptoms of Corona virus after taking the vaccine" without citing a conspiracy website?
How about those that are compromised and die due to the extra stress of the vaccine?

MO extra deaths account for 12% of the total covid related deaths in MO.

Because CoViD-19 can kill you - the vaccine won't.
That depends on the consideration of

HWIN has noted your inability to support your claims with evidence, and here you've made some more unsupported/unsupportable claims. Your anecdote about your brother, the already explained Elon Musk story, and now raising the accusation that China deliberately engineered the disease.
It isn't like I can submit a source for my brother's experience now can I? Elon Musk did take different tests and ironically it proves that Corona virus testing is flimsy depending on the type of test. Corona is traced to the same region as their biological weapons lab in Wuhan
Well, all I can say is that the vast majority of those who've died in America are the unvaccinated. If that doesn't convince you to get vaccinated then so be it.
Far more have died due to Heart Disease yet people still eat unhealthy foods - their choice. Far more Americans have died due to firearms and yet people still choose to have firearms again - their choice.
Remember what I said several posts back about the onus being on the speaker to be clear about what they say/mean to avoid confusion otherwise they're failing to communicate?

This has been a perfect example of that.

Because you didn't use punctuation, it led to my misunderstanding what you said/meant.
Even without punctuation the order isn't switched. It still said young = less old = more.
It's not ambiguous.

You're talking about circumstances where you have some say in the matter.

If you're sent to prison or committed to a psychiatric institute, it's because you're deemed to be a threat to the community/public/society - you have no control over that.
What is the likelihood or the consideration in terms of reality of this?
The basic point is that the group takes precedence over the individual - just because the individual is allowed to do certain things doesn't change this basic fact.

When all's said and done, the it's the group that counts.
That doesn't seem to be the case in the U.S..
The costs of death penalty cases also are higher than non-death penalty ones, as well as the long process of appeals, etc. All of this makes the death penalty a waste of time, effort, and money.

Your argument merely proves my point - if the individual can be executed without recourse to appeals, etc., this shows that the group takes precedence over the individual.
My proposal would make capital punishment more less costly because again the majority cost of executing someone is the appeals process. Under my proposal there would be no appeals process on repeat offenders. Thus the majority expense would no longer be relevant. This proves you are do not understand or are not listening.
They aren't being welded into their homes, The community polices itself: members of the community are assigned to ensure that people don't congregate or travel unnecessarily.
The police, police the community. The passport the Chinese issue are good to leave their homes at certain times. The police enforce the law even in China. Also yes there are instances of Chinese welding Chinese into their own homes. It was legal to do so within a time period as those passports do allow travel at certain times.
No it isn't - they are no different than citizens who've been "deputised" to enforce the law. They are acting on behalf of the community - the group.

The argument centres around whether the group or the individual takes precedence.
I thought the argument was group over the individual in the context of the U.S.?
Ideals take a back seat to reality - when one individuals rights endanger everyone else's, the latter's rights take precedence.
Need some specific examples in the U.S. to prove this. This is too vague to say yay or nay.
The social media "mob" are more a danger to those in the public eye - J K Rowling ("transphobic!"), Liam Neeson ("racist!"), etc. - rather than the average member of the public. I would agree that the "virtue signalling" of many who declare themselves to be "outraged" is more likely to be to protect/enhance their public image. Similarly with the "Defund the police!" calls that followed the killing of African Americans by the police - now, the realities of increased (violent) crime has resulted in such calls disappearing, judging from mayoral races in the US.
Yet legal theft and non prosecution of those in California and New York make it unlikely offenders are going to be prosecuted citing discrimination being the principle the law was implemented. Which is ridiculous and a direct result of the Victim Olympics types
If they were required to do so in order to vote, I believe they would.

If you had to get out to vote to effect change, then - again - I believe they would.

Those who don't care what happens or expect the status quo to remain won't bother.
That would depend on actual enforcement. It is rare to see police officers nowadays. Keep in mind we are at record lows in terms of active police officers as many have retired early or quit after the verdict of Floyd. We don't have the enforcement to worry about such minor things. It is unlikely most laws are to be enforced.
For myself, I don't bother voting for parties or individuals - I only vote on issues, like marriage equality or abortion.

This is the only way I can exercise my democratic vote directly - and, yes, I do educate myself on issues, although I'd claim to already well informed about the issues not to need much, if any, study into them.
Well again there wouldn't be a way to vote on the issues as the issues are put into omnibus bills which include different topics in the same law. What does gun control have to do with infrastructure? Roads have nothing to do with firearms and thus people vote against what they majority don't agree with.
I'd have thought that would be a good thing from a conservative standpoint.

IF progressives want change, they have to vote for it - which necessitates being informed of the pros and cons regarding the consequences.

My suggestion would help mitigate against one of the problems of democracy - populism.
Vast majority of young people which are the majority of so called progressives don't vote though. If anything it seems like it would primarily effect conservative voting as it seems people on the right want less regulations not more regulations and would put up with far less compared to those on the left.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
"...citation is a reference to the source of information used in your research. Any time you directly quote, paraphrase or summarize the essential elements of someone else's idea in your work..."

So basically a citation is X person conveyed X and I agree. If you want specific citations are research from specific sources then you should be more specific.

:rolleyes:

Oh, child, you know that when people ask for citations, they are not looking for your opinion or an anecdote. Stop acting obtuse.

Capture.PNG


Much lower than 100% and frankly a little better in terms of a coin flip is not something I would rely on.

:rolleyes:

A random screenshot is not going to cut it. Would you please provide a proper citation? Claims made without evidence can and will be dismissed without evidence.

The very fact that statistics vary wildly, the testing is not very accurate and the locals attempting to get federal funding claiming more Corona deaths is very suspect.

Citations needed.

How about those that are compromised and die due to the extra stress of the vaccine?

MO extra deaths account for 12% of the total covid related deaths in MO.

https://www.kmbc.com/article/deaths-noted-in-several-high-risk-missouri-covid-19-patients-who-had-been-vaccinated/37178660 That depends on the consideration of

https://www.kmbc.com/article/deaths...-19-patients-who-had-been-vaccinated/37178660

The article you linked does not say they died from the vaccine. It says they died even though they were vaccinated. Work on your reading comprehension.
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
The article you linked does not say they died from the vaccine. It says they died even though they were vaccinated. Work on your reading comprehension.
If you paid attention to the whole argument you would realize that I am generally distrustful of the Corona vaccine and testing and the like. People dying regardless of taking the vaccine is made to illustrate why people don't trust the vaccines. Also there isn't any extra evidence that they also didn't die from the vaccine. Remember that the science on Corona virus isn't very exact?
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
Are you still wondering why people think you are a part of QAnon?
We already know vaccines CAN be deadly.

The small pox vaccine resulted in some deaths and complications.

Complications relating to the Corona vaccines also resulted likewise involving death.

I don't think the corona vaccine is some sort of mass murder weapon.

We still don't know all of the effects of the vaccine and the more people take the vaccine the more reports are given that complications arise after taking the vaccine.

Even various videos of news agencies asking people working in the medical field were asked about vaccine mandates said that accommodations should be made and it is a natural reaction to be suspicious of the unknown and especially of something really new and untested that gets introduced into your body. That is all I am arguing or even suggesting here.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
We already know vaccines CAN be deadly.

The small pox vaccine resulted in some deaths and complications.

This is like arguing that guns are dangerous because muskets can explode in your hand.

Complications relating to the Corona vaccines also resulted likewise involving death.

Citation needed.

I don't think the corona vaccine is some sort of mass murder weapon.

Right, you are just questioning why people should get it.

We still don't know all of the effects of the vaccine and the more people take the vaccine the more reports are given that complications arise after taking the vaccine.

Citation needed.

Even various videos of news agencies asking people working in the medical field were asked about vaccine mandates said that accommodations should be made and it is a natural reaction to be suspicious of the unknown and especially of something really new and untested that gets introduced into your body. That is all I am arguing or even suggesting here.

It sounds like they are saying something sensible that you are taking out of context. Would you please provide a citation for verification?
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
This is like arguing that guns are dangerous because muskets can explode in your hand.
So a firearm exploding in your hand is not dangerous? Muskets exploding like any other firearm usually have to do with a barrel obstruction. Barrel obstructions can happen to muskets and modern arms alike. I think your own example is simply a point in favor of my argument.
Citation needed.
You cannot cite citations of a positive claim when the deaths relating to Covid and Vaccine are not entirely known. There have been report of people dying when A they have had the vaccine 1st and second dose and have died regardless but not due to complications related to breathing which the Corona virus is famous for. You cannot cite an unknown.
Right, you are just questioning why people should get it.
Yes like I said before these vaccines are largely untested and long term people don't know what the effects are. They effect people differently. I remember 1 news report resulting in a cyst at the injection site and even medical professionals are questioning the vaccine that has been mandated for them to take.
Citation needed.
Again this is an unknown. There have been people on camera that work in the medical field saying this. How do you cite an unknown? It is like citing where God lives and stuff.
It sounds like they are saying something sensible that you are taking out of context. Would you please provide a citation for verification?


Its odd that leftists typically argue "my body my choice" in terms of abortion a deliberate killing of something innocent yet they don't support it when on the topic of vaccination. Sounds highly ironic and hypocritical to me.

Even the fact that other countries have no vaccine mandate like Germany already hints at distrust over the vaccine otherwise people would be getting it either by their own choice or by mandate but that isn't the case.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
So a firearm exploding in your hand is not dangerous? Muskets exploding like any other firearm usually have to do with a barrel obstruction. Barrel obstructions can happen to muskets and modern arms alike. I think your own example is simply a point in favor of my argument.

Again, you do not know much about history, do you? If you think this is a point in your favor, you are ignorant of the history of firearms.

You cannot cite citations of a positive claim when the deaths relating to Covid and Vaccine are not entirely known. There have been report of people dying when A they have had the vaccine 1st and second dose and have died regardless but not due to complications related to breathing which the Corona virus is famous for. You cannot cite an unknown.

Claims made without evidence can and will be dismissed without evidence.

Yes like I said before these vaccines are largely untested and long term people don't know what the effects are. They effect people differently. I remember 1 news report resulting in a cyst at the injection site and even medical professionals are questioning the vaccine that has been mandated for them to take.

Again, typical anti-vax rhetoric. Fear mongering and no citations to their claims.

Again this is an unknown. There have been people on camera that work in the medical field saying this. How do you cite an unknown? It is like citing where God lives and stuff.

Again, claims made without evidence can and will be dismissed without evidence. It is good that you have feelings, but please do not pretend to substitute your feelings for facts and evidence.



That was even worse than I thought. Just four typical anti-vax healthcare workers. Yeah, they claim not to be anti-vax, but they spout the same talking points as all typical anti-vaxxers. For example, they wrongly claim the vaccines were not tasted and question the CDC for reasons not given.

Its odd that leftists typically argue "my body my choice" in terms of abortion a deliberate killing of something innocent yet they don't support it when on the topic of vaccination. Sounds highly ironic and hypocritical to me.

Abortion is a bodily rights issue. Do people not have the right to their own bodily autonomy? Of course, and that is the difference when it comes to contagious diseases. Their bodily autonomy is causing sickness, death, and hospitals to become overrun.

Even the fact that other countries have no vaccine mandate like Germany already hints at distrust over the vaccine otherwise people would be getting it either by their own choice or by mandate but that isn't the case.

Another typical anti-vax talking point. Other countries do not make the flu vaccine mandatory, yet it is safe and effective. This argument does not follow.
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
Again, you do not know much about history, do you? If you think this is a point in your favor, you are ignorant of the history of firearms.
The original context is that in the comparison given both types of firearms can be dangerous. Barrel obstructions lead to catastrophic failure of the firearm. I am aware of the history of firearms clearly you are not. You also don't have any real world experience either. Case in Point:

20210405_162839.jpg
Claims made without evidence can and will be dismissed without evidence.
You asked. You are ignoring that evidence and not actually looking.
Again, typical anti-vax rhetoric. Fear mongering and no citations to their claims.
Those who work in the medical field question the vaccines yes or no? Yes they do.

How long have the vaccines been tested for? Moderna was approved December 18, 2020. Not very long when you consider other vaccines that have been at least approved for use in the U.S..

Have the vaccines been approved by the FDA? No. They have been granted Emergency use and it does not come close in any regard to the testing they perform in order to certify or approve use in the U.S..
Again, claims made without evidence can and will be dismissed without evidence. It is good that you have feelings, but please do not pretend to substitute your feelings for facts and evidence.
We already know the vaccines are largely untested considering the normal process to get approval. We already know the vaccines enlarge your lymph nodes after injection. We already know people have died from Corona virus after getting the injection. We already know it is more likely you get Corona virus after a certain time period after getting the injection.








That was even worse than I thought. Just four typical anti-vax healthcare workers. Yeah, they claim not to be anti-vax, but they spout the same talking points as all typical anti-vaxxers. For example, they wrongly claim the vaccines were not tasted and question the CDC for reasons not given.
Not tested to the same degree as other vaccinations NO. They have not. Getting a EUA is NOT the same as being granted FDA approval.
Abortion is a bodily rights issue. Do people not have the right to their own bodily autonomy? Of course, and that is the difference when it comes to contagious diseases. Their bodily autonomy is causing sickness, death, and hospitals to become overrun.
Ok so you do support my right not to get vaccinated then claiming bodily autonomy?
Another typical anti-vax talking point. Other countries do not make the flu vaccine mandatory, yet it is safe and effective. This argument does not follow.
Capture.PNG
I specifically cited Germany NOT mandating the vaccine NOT making it mandatory. You have the problem with reading comprehension not me.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
The original context is that in the comparison given both types of firearms can be dangerous. Barrel obstructions lead to catastrophic failure of the firearm. I am aware of the history of firearms clearly you are not. You also don't have any real world experience either. Case in Point:

Nope, that was not the original context. The original context was you claiming that a version of the smallpox vaccine resulted in death and me pointing out that muskets used to explode. You then went off on the irrelevance of barrels being the problem missing my point completely. Do you need me to spell it out to you? I would have thought me talking about history would have highlighted it, but you are very slow.

Also, the pictures you are taking off Instagram are cute.

You asked. You are ignoring that evidence and not actually looking.

You gave no evidence. Remember, you said:

You cannot cite citations of a positive claim when the deaths relating to Covid and Vaccine are not entirely known. There have been report of people dying when A they have had the vaccine 1st and second dose and have died regardless but not due to complications related to breathing which the Corona virus is famous for. You cannot cite an unknown.

Thus, what am I ignoring when you admit that you cannot give a citation?

Those who work in the medical field question the vaccines yes or no? Yes they do.

Very few do, yes.

How long have the vaccines been tested for? Moderna was approved December 18, 2020. Not very long when you consider other vaccines that have been at least approved for use in the U.S..

Please, Mr. Anti-vaxxer, how long should they be tested for? And what are you basing that on?

Have the vaccines been approved by the FDA? No. They have been granted Emergency use and it does not come close in any regard to the testing they perform in order to certify or approve use in the U.S..

Correct. And? Do you not know how Emergency Use works?

We already know the vaccines are largely untested considering the normal process to get approval.

Incorrect.

We already know the vaccines enlarge your lymph nodes after injection. We already know people have died from Corona virus after getting the injection.

Wow. You said two correct things. Amazing. The real question is, and?

We already know it is more likely you get Corona virus after a certain time period after getting the injection.

Citation needed. None of those videos claim a time period of catching the CoViD after injection; they claim some people caught it, which is true of any vaccine. No vaccine is 100% effective, and its true power comes from herd immunity. In addition, the CoViD vaccines reduce severe illness and hospitalization if a vaccinated person catches it.

Not tested to the same degree as other vaccinations NO. They have not. Getting a EUA is NOT the same as being granted FDA approval.

Again, the real question to that is and?

Ok so you do support my right not to get vaccinated then claiming bodily autonomy?

Has anyone here argued for vaccine mandates? Is that straw I see you caring?

I specifically cited Germany NOT mandating the vaccine NOT making it mandatory. You have the problem with reading comprehension not me.

:rolleyes:

So, you quote me saying exactly that, take a screenshot of you also saying exactly that and claim that I have a problem with reading comprehension? Hilarious and ironic. Again, please work on your reading comprehension. This is getting very sad. In addition, you missed my point completely again.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,

1) The cited source is not federal law.
What's that got to do with it?

Whether it's federal law or not, there are ordinances (non-federal) relating to noise in various places, at various times of day or night, as I pointed out.

2) The cited source is not in a state where I live therefore it doesn't apply to me.
In one of your posts, you accidentally "doxed" yourself ( :eek: My standards!) by saying "Here in Texas".

Although you also mentioned Knoxville, there's one in North Texas founded by people from Tennessee.

To be fair, you also said, "when I used to live in Texas", so I'm not sure which statement was true, and which a diversion. Perhaps you work in Texas, and live in Tennessee!?

If you like, I can pull the relevant laws/ordinances for TN.

3) That disorderly conduct statute isn't even directly quoted in the source and so you have to believe in the interpretation of the website.
The author of the article is a lawyer in Texas - one would hope he was familiar with his own state's laws.

Here's the relevant code [1], and here's another lawyer's "interpretation" [2].

4) That is up to the discretion of the police being sent to that area again most times for a call of service police are not sent for these small time events.
Even so, they're still in breach of the law, and if the neighbours complain enough, they will be sent.

No even if you were to look up noise ordinances they usually apply a time range.
The one's I cited didn't: they may have had different decibel levels depending on the time of day or night but they applied throughout the 24 hours.

No they are not as the law will say when they are active and at what noise level. They also do not apply under public celebration and vary wildly between states, counties, and municipalities.
We're not talking about special occasions when the community is involved (the group) - I am, and have been, talking specifically about a individual's actions. And I acknowledged that they varied depending on place and time.

There are commercial ranges in my state that have firearms being shot 6 out of 7 days a week, That very same range rents literal machine guns. A gunshot is well over 80 db.
Again, the sources I cited discuss various exceptions such as gun ranges, etc.

The fact is that you are misrepresenting this as the laws vary wildly and depend on the consistent enforcement which does not happen in reality.
No, I'm not - I covered all of this with my sources and posts.

May I remind you that you were the one who said "nothing would happen", whereas I indicated *something* would happen - either the police or a magistrate would, at least, issue a warning with legal action to follow if such is ignored - and supported my claim with cited ordinances, and laws.

That ISN'T allowed which is the conflict. Both are violations.
As I've said before, special privileges shouldn't be allowed - Americans are supposed to be "equal before the law", according to your constitution. If they allowed someone to carry on religious-exemption grounds, it'd breach the 1A.

That's why I asked which takes precedence - the 1st or the 2nd?

Either:
a) no-one's allowed to bring weapons into federal property (no exceptions, religious or otherwise);
or
b) everyone's allowed to bring weapons into federal property (no discrimination).

As I see it, it's a 1A issue, so the 1A takes precedence.

One is a hard count and the other is an ESTIMATE.
The estimate for CoViD deaths is based on actual figures - at least 600,000 Americans have died, the additional deaths are based on unreported/misidentified deaths.

My argument is vehicles involved in KILLINGS not wounding therefore damage is moot.
The example you gave is a van-bomb - not just a vehicle on its own being driven into a crowd.

The fact that you had to pick a van containing a bomb to support your claim that cars can kill more people than guns shows you can't support your claim without reaching for a extreme example.

I could do the same by claiming that food-poisoning kills more people than guns, and then cite a example where 85 elderly people suffered food-poisoning at a party, of whom a considerable number died (this was given as a test scenario - based on a actual event - given by a chef teaching health and hygiene to a group of catering students at a UK training company where i taught IT).

Covid does target and is spread more easily to people with prior conditions. If they don't have those conditions or be of those common ages of catching Covid then they are not under significant danger of catching Covid and having symptoms in order to be killed.

There have been people with life threatening ailments and then caught Corona so I find statistics to be unreliable due to the fact of:
Did the original serious ailment they had already kill them and was just marked Corona virus death in order to receive more funding?
Did Corona actually kill them?
The figures are accurate [3]

From the paper:
Furthermore, as of August 4, 2021, more than 164 million Americans were fully vaccinated against COVID-19, with 191 million people having acquired partial immunity through at least one dose.17
More than 80 percent of Americans 65 and older are fully vaccinated. “See How Vaccinations Are Going in Your County and State,” The New York Times, https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html (accessed August 4, 2021)

Yet, among those fully vaccinated, the CDC reports 7,525 COVID-19 patients who either were hospitalized or died, a figure representing 0.005 percent of the fully vaccinated.18 This CDC statistic reflects data as of August 2, 2021. See U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, “COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Case Investigation and Reporting,” August 2, 2021, https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html (accessed August 8, 2021).

According to the CDC, 74 percent of these cases were people ages 65 and older, 26 percent of these hospitalizations were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19, and 21 percent (316) of the 1,507 fatal cases were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19.19

The very fact that statistics vary wildly, the testing is not very accurate and the locals attempting to get federal funding claiming more Corona deaths is very suspect.
On what evidence are you basing the claim that locals are attempting to get federal funding by claiming more Corona deaths? Again, is this from a conspiracy website?

Yes I would consider that argument lazy because statistics are not very accurate in this regard. I find vehicular deaths to be far easier to trace as it involves a vehicle and not something as complicated as ailments in the human body for a major part that the medical professionals still don't fully understand and the ailment itself is changing.
Just because a pre-existing condition leaves one vulnerable to CoViD does not mean that that condition killed you.

HIV doesn't kill you - it leaves you immuno-compromised, resulting in you being vulnerable to diseases that can kill you, from pneumonia to cancer.

Apart from being in my sixties, I'm a Type 2 diabetic, as well as having underlying breathing-related conditions (asthma, eczema, hay fever, rhinitis, and sinusitis) associated with a congenital eye problem (kerataconas).

As a result, I'm in the "vulnerable" group.

Despite being fully vaccinated (Pfizer), it's possible I could suffer a breakthrough infection. I wear a mask when I go out - just as a precaution. Of course, one has to wear masks inside public spaces - shops, public transport, etc., - as much as a courtesy to others as for my own personal health/safety.

Were I to get - and die from - CoViD-19, would the cause of death be:
1) Diabetes?;
2) Kerataconas?;
3) CoViD-19?

If the doctors chose 3), does that mean they're lying or just mistaken - rather than being correct?

If Corona goes against a mask it still has a better chance of getting through the mask through a variety of reasons compared to a caliber that an armor is rated to stop. One is inherently more reliable than the other in their intended use.
Although there are varying levels of effectiveness depending on the mask, this is no different than a vest.

Viruses generally invade through mucus membranes - nose, mouth, eyes, and ears. The latter two are rarer since most airborne viruses infect through being breathed-in. CoViD-19 is clearly infecting through the lungs, as evidenced by the damage it does there.

Vests only protect the torso to a certain extent - it's possible to be killed by being shot in the side or above the vest, even by a calibre for which it's rated. And they don't protect you from head or neck shots - not to mention being shot in major arteries where you can bleed to death in minutes (pelvis, arms and/or legs).

And a IIIA vest won't protect against rifle rounds - and even with plates, they cover even less of the torso than the vest itself, leaving one even more vulnerable to being killed.

I would argue that a properly manufactured mask (N95, for example) will protect you better from airborne viruses than a vest from a bullet.

What implication? If it is an implication I would have to know exactly what I said in order to know an implication I am not aware of correct?
You said (#59):
Obviously if Corona hasn't done any damage to me but people have attacked me with weapons then obviously the more credible threat is those of weapons especially considering the rate of violent crime relative to Corona virus cases in my locale.
So, I asked:
And I'd like to see a citation for you're implied claim that the violent crime rate exceeds CoViD-19 cases in your area.
So, is there a citation for what you implied?

Covid has natural cure. Assuming the human body is strong enough eventually you will get rid of Covid in practical terms in having no symptoms and in the technical when you repeatedly test negative and have no symptoms.
Now you're being facetious.

ALL diseases have a "natural cure" - IF your immune system manages not only to keep you alive but return you to the level of health you enjoyed before contracting/developing the disease.

I'm talking about medical cures.

We don't have a cure for AIDS, though we may soon have a viable vaccine against HIV. [4]

How about those that are compromised and die due to the extra stress of the vaccine?
Again, a source for this would be useful.

Neither of these articles are accessible to me - "Sorry, this content is not available in your region."

It isn't like I can submit a source for my brother's experience now can I? Elon Musk did take different tests and ironically it proves that Corona virus testing is flimsy depending on the type of test. Corona is traced to the same region as their biological weapons lab in Wuhan
HWIN has already dealt with the Elon Musk tests.

And it's a virology lab - not a "biological weapons lab" - as Potholer explained in his videos:





Far more have died due to Heart Disease yet people still eat unhealthy foods - their choice. Far more Americans have died due to firearms and yet people still choose to have firearms again - their choice.
Comparing a non-contagious disease - heart disease - with a contagious one - a virus - is comparing apples and oranges.

You can be surrounded with people suffering from heart disease, and be certain you won't get "infected" - if you're surrounded by people with a virus, whether they're showing symptoms or not, can result in you being infected - and possibly dying from it.

Even without punctuation the order isn't switched. It still said young = less old = more.
Young are "less old".

As I said earlier, if you'd used punctuation. I would not have misinterpreted what you said.

What is the likelihood or the consideration in terms of reality of this?
My point was that the group takes precedence over the individual - if the group can send you to prison/psychiatric institute, your individual rights are meaningless.

And it's certainly the case with the death penalty.

That doesn't seem to be the case in the U.S..
The operative word here being "seems".

My proposal would make capital punishment more less costly because again the majority cost of executing someone is the appeals process. Under my proposal there would be no appeals process on repeat offenders. Thus the majority expense would no longer be relevant. This proves you are do not understand or are not listening.
So, you just kill people - so much for "individual rights" allowing the individual to take precedence over the group, as I've already pointed out.

QED.

Are you saying that the costs to the community (the group) take precedence over the individual's rights?

Is this your argument for the group taking precedence over the individual?

The police, police the community. The passport the Chinese issue are good to leave their homes at certain times. The police enforce the law even in China. Also yes there are instances of Chinese welding Chinese into their own homes. It was legal to do so within a time period as those passports do allow travel at certain times.
There was one confirmed incident where local officials had someone welded into their home - the others are various online claims being parroted without evidence.

I thought the argument was group over the individual in the context of the U.S.?
Yes, though it's all over the world, America included.

Wherever you are, you're bound by laws - even if you're in the proverbial "middle of nowhere" in America. You're still bound by state and county laws and ordinances. Even if you're away form cities, towns, and municipalities, you can't do anything you want. If you start a wildfire, even by accident, you'd be liable to prosecution - because of the danger that it might end up burning down a town, thus endangering the lives of others.

Again, the group takes precedence.

Need some specific examples in the U.S. to prove this. This is too vague to say yay or nay.
Look at the Patriot Act, or the NSA's monitoring of phone calls without court orders.

There's no such thing as privacy to the intelligence community.

Yet legal theft and non prosecution of those in California and New York make it unlikely offenders are going to be prosecuted citing discrimination being the principle the law was implemented. Which is ridiculous and a direct result of the Victim Olympics types
Not quite sure what your first sentence means.

"citing discrimination being the principle the law was implemented"

??

That would depend on actual enforcement. It is rare to see police officers nowadays. Keep in mind we are at record lows in terms of active police officers as many have retired early or quit after the verdict of Floyd. We don't have the enforcement to worry about such minor things. It is unlikely most laws are to be enforced.
No need for enforcement - if one wants change, one needs to go out and vote.

Whether people need to show they're informed or not is only a idea - I don't see that it would work.

The real problem, as it is now, is that various attempts to disenfranchise voters are being implemented by Republicans on political grounds - similar to gerrymandering. There might well be similar attempts to disenfranchise those who want change.

Well again there wouldn't be a way to vote on the issues as the issues are put into omnibus bills which include different topics in the same law. What does gun control have to do with infrastructure? Roads have nothing to do with firearms and thus people vote against what they majority don't agree with.
But these are voted on by Congress or state legislatures, not the average citizens in referenda.

Vast majority of young people which are the majority of so called progressives don't vote though. If anything it seems like it would primarily effect conservative voting as it seems people on the right want less regulations not more regulations and would put up with far less compared to those on the left.
Then if they don't want change, they need to get out and vote "No".

Kindest regards,

James
 
Last edited:
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
Nope, that was not the original context. The original context was you claiming that a version of the smallpox vaccine resulted in death and me pointing out that muskets used to explode. You then went off on the irrelevance of barrels being the problem missing my point completely. Do you need me to spell it out to you? I would have thought me talking about history would have highlighted it, but you are very slow.
Instead of trying to insult someone why don't you simply explain wouldn't that be easier? Wouldn't that be lead directly more to what I think you presumably want which is to argue the point? Wouldn't that be a better use of your time?
Also, the pictures you are taking off Instagram are cute.
No that is my local range. I was the RSO on duty at the time. Guy chambered .300blk in a 556 pistol. This is the result. Guy was lucky he didn't catch brass fragmentation.
You gave no evidence. Remember, you said:
This is irrelevant my point is that anything contrary to your argument you don't look into. You don't even see the other side of the story until someone sticks it directly under your nose.
Thus, what am I ignoring when you admit that you cannot give a citation?
Covered above because you missed the point.
Very few do, yes.
Ok then why contest my statement on this when you already agree that those in the medical field challenge or distrust the vaccines in anyway? You already agreed very few do why not simply say that right from the jump?
Please, Mr. Anti-vaxxer, how long should they be tested for? And what are you basing that on?
How about because something untested and many reports of problems with the vaccines warrants further investigation. We have NO IDEA what the long term effects of the vaccine is. My knowledge of cysts, people dying near to them receiving the vaccine, people catching Covid after they get the vaccine etc. Seems like knowing what the effects of medicine you are injecting into yourself would be important no? Thus the testing.
Think of FDA approval as quality assurance. Other medications are tested far longer and therefore there are lists of known side effects these vaccines have unknowns and knowns. Reports of deaths and other issues associated with them makes me concerned given the rate of death associated with Corona virus plus the absolutely tom foolery considering the possibility of dying or being harmed from a VACCINE.

Obviously the multiple reports related to or associated with the vaccines are a problem right? If you discover a problem with anything do you just stick your head in the sand? Or do you go check things out? I had a flat recently. If your car is shaking do you not pull over and determine the cause of the shaking or do you just drive on?
This doesn't cover all vaccines. Even still there are chances of medical staff using dirty needles, wrong types of needles, needles which have an allergic reaction associated with them in certain people. All of which I simply don't want to risk or deal with considering the chances of critical condition brought about by Covid it is a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Why take all the extra risks and then maybe or maybe not the Vaccine (and/or transmission variables) does something worse? It isn't worth it especially on something not as tested as anything else and granted emergency approval not standardized testing.
Wow. You said two correct things. Amazing. The real question is, and?
If I honestly have to explain this you have lost the point entirely. Why should I take the extra risk?
Citation needed. None of those videos claim a time period of catching the CoViD after injection; they claim some people caught it, which is true of any vaccine. No vaccine is 100% effective, and its true power comes from herd immunity. In addition, the CoViD vaccines reduce severe illness and hospitalization if a vaccinated person catches it.
That is a huge asterisk. It highly depends on the vaccine and your specific physiology. It also depends on other factors not related to the vaccine. I am healthy now and the odds are hilariously low on dying from Covid. So unless things get more drastic and say the illness goes to 90% transmission rate and 90% chance of death or hospitalization or some such I don't consider the vaccine or the ways to get it to be worth it. So not worth in fact.
Again, the real question to that is and?
One is WORSE one is BETTER. Is it better to test an unknown longer or shorter? Longer right?
Has anyone here argued for vaccine mandates? Is that straw I see you caring?
Didn't I start the argument that there shouldn't be mandates? If you agree there shouldn't be mandates then don't say anything. Don't complicate the argument if you don't disagree.
:rolleyes:

So, you quote me saying exactly that, take a screenshot of you also saying exactly that and claim that I have a problem with reading comprehension? Hilarious and ironic. Again, please work on your reading comprehension. This is getting very sad. In addition, you missed my point completely again.
Well you missed multiple points I made so what's the difference?
 
arg-fallbackName="BoganUSAFFLClerk"/>
What's that got to do with it?

Whether it's federal law or not, there are ordinances (non-federal) relating to noise in various places, at various times of day or night, as I pointed out.
Obviously if you cite Texas law and I live in a different state then am I obligated to follow that law or am I going to be punished under that law? No. Then it is entirely irrelevant what I may do and what a resident of a different state may do given the statute or federal law. It is highly dependent on locale.
In one of your posts, you accidentally "doxed" yourself ( :eek: My standards!) by saying "Here in Texas".

Although you also mentioned Knoxville, there's one in North Texas founded by people from Tennessee.

To be fair, you also said, "when I used to live in Texas", so I'm not sure which statement was true, and which a diversion. Perhaps you work in Texas, and live in Tennessee!?

If you like, I can pull the relevant laws/ordinances for TN.
Ugh fine. I mostly only care about doxxing when it comes to my job. I don't want to levy a bunch of disclaimers.
The author of the article is a lawyer in Texas - one would hope he was familiar with his own state's laws.

Here's the relevant code [1], and here's another lawyer's "interpretation" [2].


Even so, they're still in breach of the law, and if the neighbours complain enough, they will be sent.
Ah but you unrival your own point. If people complain enough I am sure something will be done to what degree though remains to be seen. Even with posted law currently in my locale it is largely unenforced. Do you really think police are going to show when violent crime is so high and those calls take priority? I don't see cops on a regular basis. They don't enforce speed limits. They don't show promptly when I reported firearms stolen when intercepting them at an FFL in order to give trade in value. They show to more important things if at all considering the number of police still being police and the number of new recruits to replace them. Remember after the verdict relating to George Floyd there were RECORD retirements, quittings and transferrings in the U.S. considering law enforcement. It is more difficult to replenish police and get the man hours to simply be a and operate as a cop. You can claim the law all you want but the reality of enforcement is yet another thorn in your side regarding this argument. The law says I need to have my vehicle registration up to date and yet I see people's tags expired by months and months.
The one's I cited didn't: they may have had different decibel levels depending on the time of day or night but they applied throughout the 24 hours.
statute section 9.42 stipulates time and place.
"...prohibited conduct occurred at a public school campus during regular school hours."
My point is that disorderly conduct or similar statutes aren't defacto even written in law they are constrained to specifics.
We're not talking about special occasions when the community is involved (the group) - I am, and have been, talking specifically about a individual's actions. And I acknowledged that they varied depending on place and time.
Ditto above.
Again, the sources I cited discuss various exceptions such as gun ranges, etc.
Yes I am literally arguing such statutes aren't absolute. There are constraints to sound level, locality and purpose.
No, I'm not - I covered all of this with my sources and posts.

May I remind you that you were the one who said "nothing would happen", whereas I indicated *something* would happen - either the police or a magistrate would, at least, issue a warning with legal action to follow if such is ignored - and supported my claim with cited ordinances, and laws.
We have no magistrates it is Sherriff if in county and Police Department if in city.

Too long of text pick this up later maybe after I deal wit my car. Blown out and spare tire failed.
 
arg-fallbackName="Dragan Glas"/>
Greetings,

Obviously if you cite Texas law and I live in a different state then am I obligated to follow that law or am I going to be punished under that law? No. Then it is entirely irrelevant what I may do and what a resident of a different state may do given the statute or federal law. It is highly dependent on locale.
Regardless, whether you live or merely work somewhere, if you breach ordinances/laws relating to noise and/or disorderly conduct, said laws will apply to you.

I couldn't claim they don't apply to me because, "I'm a tourist!", could I?

Ugh fine. I mostly only care about doxxing when it comes to my job. I don't want to levy a bunch of disclaimers.
So ... does that mean you work in Texas and live in Tennessee or vice versa? ;)

Ah but you unrival your own point. If people complain enough I am sure something will be done to what degree though remains to be seen. Even with posted law currently in my locale it is largely unenforced. Do you really think police are going to show when violent crime is so high and those calls take priority? I don't see cops on a regular basis. They don't enforce speed limits. They don't show promptly when I reported firearms stolen when intercepting them at an FFL in order to give trade in value. They show to more important things if at all considering the number of police still being police and the number of new recruits to replace them. Remember after the verdict relating to George Floyd there were RECORD retirements, quittings and transferrings in the U.S. considering law enforcement. It is more difficult to replenish police and get the man hours to simply be a and operate as a cop. You can claim the law all you want but the reality of enforcement is yet another thorn in your side regarding this argument. The law says I need to have my vehicle registration up to date and yet I see people's tags expired by months and months.
If the local force is undermanned then I understand how things might be currently, though I'm sure before all the "defund the police", etc, happenings, things were different.

The vehicle registration issue you noted could just as easily be due to the DMV not having enough people to process renewal applications - yet another "benefit" of "small government".

statute section 9.42 stipulates time and place.
"...prohibited conduct occurred at a public school campus during regular school hours."
My point is that disorderly conduct or similar statutes aren't defacto even written in law they are constrained to specifics.

Ditto above.
It's also possible that because there's only a nominal $500 fine (at least in Texas) that they might not be seen as particularly important.

Yes I am literally arguing such statutes aren't absolute. There are constraints to sound level, locality and purpose.

We have no magistrates it is Sherriff if in county and Police Department if in city.

Too long of text pick this up later maybe after I deal wit my car. Blown out and spare tire failed.
OK.

Kindest regards,

James
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
Instead of trying to insult someone why don't you simply explain wouldn't that be easier? Wouldn't that be lead directly more to what I think you presumably want which is to argue the point? Wouldn't that be a better use of your time?

Tone policing from a faithless antagonist. How cute.

No that is my local range. I was the RSO on duty at the time.

Sure pal.

This is irrelevant my point is that anything contrary to your argument you don't look into. You don't even see the other side of the story until someone sticks it directly under your nose.

I actually know your side very well, which is why I know you have nothing but an empty bag of fear-mongering. You have nothing to stick under anyone's nose.

Covered above because you missed the point.

Your point is that because you have opinions, I should take them seriously. But, unfortunately, that is not how this works. Either provide evidence for your claims or have them dismissed.

Ok then why contest my statement on this when you already agree that those in the medical field challenge or distrust the vaccines in anyway? You already agreed very few do why not simply say that right from the jump?

When did I contest this? First, you made a claim that I thought you were taking out of context, and I asked for said context, then you provided a news report in which they interviewed four anti-vax healthcare workers, which was worse than what I originally thought. Nowhere in that exchange did I contest that there were healthcare workers that are against getting vaccinated. Please work on your reading comprehension.

How about because something untested...

Stop lying. The vaccines have been tested.

... and many reports of problems with the vaccines warrants further investigation.

Citation needed.

We have NO IDEA what the long term effects of the vaccine is.

Nor of the virus on people or a population.

My knowledge of cysts...

Which I bet is not much.

... people dying near to them receiving the vaccine, people catching Covid after they get the vaccine etc.

Both are expected with any vaccine. Both would be expected from any medical intervention. Your job would be to show that these amount to anything beyond statistical noise.

Seems like knowing what the effects of medicine you are injecting into yourself would be important no?

They are known.

Thus the testing.

Again, they are tested. Stop lying about that. The funny thing about this is your own news source (the one interviewing the anti-vaxxer medical workers) even pointed out that the vaccines are tested. Why you continue to lie about this is beyond me.

Think of FDA approval as quality assurance. Other medications are tested far longer and therefore there are lists of known side effects these vaccines have unknowns and knowns. Reports of deaths and other issues associated with them makes me concerned given the rate of death associated with Corona virus plus the absolutely tom foolery considering the possibility of dying or being harmed from a VACCINE.

Typical anti-vax talking points. All fear-mongering with no substance.

Obviously the multiple reports related to or associated with the vaccines are a problem right? If you discover a problem with anything do you just stick your head in the sand? Or do you go check things out? I had a flat recently. If your car is shaking do you not pull over and determine the cause of the shaking or do you just drive on?

Citation needed.

This doesn't cover all vaccines.

It does cover all the CoViD vaccines.

Even still there are chances of medical staff using dirty needles, wrong types of needles, needles which have an allergic reaction associated with them in certain people. All of which I simply don't want to risk or deal with considering the chances of critical condition brought about by Covid it is a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Why take all the extra risks and then maybe or maybe not the Vaccine (and/or transmission variables) does something worse? It isn't worth it especially on something not as tested as anything else and granted emergency approval not standardized testing.

Again, more typical anti-vax fear-mongering with no substance. Sad.

If I honestly have to explain this you have lost the point entirely. Why should I take the extra risk?

Because the risk of getting a vaccine is far lower than catching the CoViD.

That is a huge asterisk. It highly depends on the vaccine and your specific physiology. It also depends on other factors not related to the vaccine.

Citation needed.

I am healthy now and the odds are hilariously low on dying from Covid. So unless things get more drastic and say the illness goes to 90% transmission rate and 90% chance of death or hospitalization or some such I don't consider the vaccine or the ways to get it to be worth it. So not worth in fact.

Dying of the CoViD is not the only bad outcome to come about from catching it. Honestly, you admitted to not having insurance, so can you seriously afford to miss three days of work plus the medical bills because you spent two nights face up in a hospital?

Beyond that, the true strength of any vaccine comes from herd immunity. Does personal responsibility mean anything to you?

One is WORSE one is BETTER. Is it better to test an unknown longer or shorter? Longer right?

Longer. However, the same can be said about getting vaccinated as opposed to not getting vaccinated. One is worse, and one is better. So just based on this logic, you should get vaccinated. But we all know you are not trying to apply logic; you are just trying to justify your selfish actions.

Didn't I start the argument that there shouldn't be mandates? If you agree there shouldn't be mandates then don't say anything. Don't complicate the argument if you don't disagree.

You did start with that, then followed it up with a bunch of anti-vax talking points. I challenged the talking points because falsehood should never be allowed to stand and because it is easy. One can do the latter without dealing with the former.

Well you missed multiple points I made so what's the difference?

I did not, nor can you show that to be the case.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
Nor of the virus on people or a population.
In fact, we have very good ideas about the long-term effects of the virus, including neurotropism, Lewy bodies indicating Parkinson's and other dementia disorders, changes in blood morphology not unlike sickle cell, autoimmune, chronic fatigue, ocular degeneration.

Not even getting into the ignorant fuckwittery about any of the vaccines not having been tested.

I've covered all the bullshit about the virus and the vaccines at length n the usual place.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
In fact, we have very good ideas about the long-term effects of the virus, including neurotropism, Lewy bodies indicating Parkinson's and other dementia disorders, changes in blood morphology not unlike sickle cell, autoimmune, chronic fatigue, ocular degeneration.

Since I have been such a pedant with BoganUSAFFLClerk, it would be remiss if I did not say citation needed.

;)
 
Back
Top