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Discussion on the most notorious section of the U.S constitution

Myrtonos

Member
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
The biggest reason why we (the people of so many other Western countries) bash Americans is probably the presence of guns and how the U.S handles gun control. Most countries of the world seem to have enacted tighter since laws since the 2nd amendment was ratified, so have there been any attempts in the U.S to repeal this amendment, and who turned them down and on what basis?
 
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arg-fallbackName="We are Borg"/>
If you look at Aron Ra video’s you see why the rest of the world thinks about the USA. Because religion is being introduced into schools it becomes dangerous as country, because at that point you do not train your children to think critical and you lose minds and with that ideas.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nesslig20"/>
Personal opinion, I don't get the gun culture. I see no good reason to carry a gun around all the time, expecting that I might have to shoot somebody out of self-defence.

Although this is perhaps a cultural bias I have. Especially when you are living in a country where practically nobody else has a gun. It's kind of a cycle. When you promote gun carrying, you make people more nervous about others having guns who could shoot you, so you promote more gun carrying out of fear that others might shoot you, etc.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
I am pretty sure religion has had no place in our government schools since at least the mid 1980's. Universities in the US were generally founded by religious (Christian) organizations. But that was a long time ago.

Last Friday, 100 people were shot in Chicago. 100 people. Thats pretty normal for a weekend in Chicago. Violent crime is a big problem in many parts of the US. It is mostly gangs and blacks comiting crimes against other black people. When I was 12, an older gang member gave me and a couple other of my friends some cocaine and made one of my friends shoot somebody. I was addicted to cocaine for a long time after that. Legal gun owners are not going out and shooting 100's of people each weekend.

In a perfect world, I might support a total ban on guns in the US, even though I knew millions of criminals would still have them, but I have no confidence in our police or our judicial system. The police seem more interested putting people in handcuffs and them beating the shit out of them for no reason then anything else. Maybe they will shoot some unarmed people or impose fines against middle class Americans for normal behavior.
 
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arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Although this is perhaps a cultural bias I have. Especially when you are living in a country where practically nobody else has a gun. It's kind of a cycle. When you promote gun carrying, you make people more nervous about others having guns who could shoot you, so you promote more gun carrying out of fear that others might shoot you, etc.

I think this is also a very good point. Still I have to say that in the US, I think it's pretty obvious that our police and our government officials are not really trustworthy and generally do not have our best interests at hand and I don't really feel it would a good thing if they were allowed to disarm all law abiding gun owners. Much of the US is a mess right now just because people are tired of our broken judicial system and aggressive police policies. It's a fucked up situation.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
What exactly has the role of Christianity to do with guns? There are other Christian countries, like Ireland, which appear to handle gun control just as most other countries do.
But does anyone here know of any attempts over the years to repeal the 2nd amendment?

Last Friday, 100 people were shot in Chicago. 100 people. Thats pretty normal for a weekend in Chicago.
Most countries freeze when even one person gets shot within their borders. Here in Australia, even such a gunshot in New Zealand is big news.
 
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arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
What exactly has the role of Christianity to do with guns? There are other Christian countries, like Ireland, which appear to handle gun control just as most other countries do.

There is nothing about Christianity which requires ownership of guns or to advocate the for the right to own them. In my entire life, no other Christian has ever told me I should have a gun or anything like that. Personally I know more Atheists that own guns than I do Christians that own them. But most of my family and friends are Atheist.

Most countries freeze when even one person gets shot within their borders. Here in Australia, even such a gunshot in New Zealand is big news.

I am not an expert. But I am pretty sure most of the murders in the US are the result of black people killing other blacks. I think the problem never gets solved because the people who claim they are trying to help stop this problem probably actually benefit from the problem.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
There is nothing about Christianity which requires ownership of guns or to advocate the for the right to own them.
I'm not sure there is anything about any theist religion "which requires ownership of guns or to advocate the for the right to own them". Note that there are religions without gods, so being atheist doesn't mean irreligious.
I am not an expert. But I am pretty sure most of the murders in the US are the result of black people killing other blacks.
Yes, African-Americans with guns taking down others of their race.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
A lot of Americans with guns think they need them to protect themselves against even their own government. Remember the start of this thread. I'm not sure this is a mindset in any other democratic country.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
A lot of Americans with guns think they need them to protect themselves against even their own government.

Maybe.

To stay on topic, as an American I am not even sure what the legal process would involve to void the 2nd amendment. But as far as I know there has never been a serious attempt to repeal it. Why do you ask?
 
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arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
Why do I ask? Come on, surely you know most other countries have tighter guns laws than are constitutional in the U.S, and in these countries, they are generally supported. So the U.S constitution has blocked such laws from being passed in the U.S.

There even seem to be more celebrity assassinations in the U.S than in any of those countries with tighter gun laws.
 
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arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Why do I ask? Come on, surely you know most other countries have tighter guns laws than are constitutional in the U.S, and in these countries, they are generally supported. So the U.S constitution has blocked such laws from being passed in the U.S.

There even seem to be more celebrity assassinations in the U.S than in any of those countries with tighter gun laws.

Do you have any information on how often crime is stopped by legal gun owners in the the US? Do you know how criminal gangs obtain weapons? Do you have an idea of an effective method of disarming criminal gangs and ensuring they will not be able to re-arm themselves? What is your understanding of the criminal justice system in the US and of the role it has in crime prevention? What argument do you have against sheriffs who recommend that law abiding people should be armed?
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
The information I do have is how rare gun homicide and gunshot injuries are in countries with tighter gun laws, like Canada and many European countries, Australia (my country) and New Zealand.
Could sheriffs recommend guns for law-abiding people to protect them from gangs that also have guns?

Worse still, many Americans, even gang members, often carry around guns like automatic rifles which didn't yet exist when the 2nd amendment was ratified.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
The information I do have is how rare gun homicide and gunshot injuries are in countries with tighter gun laws, like Canada and many European countries, Australia (my country) and New Zealand.
Could sheriffs recommend guns for law-abiding people to protect them from gangs that also have guns?

Worse still, many Americans, even gang members, often carry around guns like automatic rifles which didn't yet exist when the 2nd amendment was ratified.

Well I assume your overall goal would be to prevent homicide. Not sure why you include the qualifier "gun" in "gun homicide". It doesn't really help your point any.

Presumably, guns laws in the US are about the most unrestricted in the world and the US has a homicide rate of 5.35, according to this THIS. Which seems to be a about 1% less than the global average. Also I see countries with more restrictive gun laws with much higher homicide rates and countries where ever some aspects of there gun laws are more relaxed than in the US which have much less homicide than countries with more restrictive laws. In Norway for example, you are even allowed to own a silencer and there homicide rate is is only about .05.

So comparing gun controls to murder rates doesn't really show an obvious correlation of the 2. Maybe we should not be so quick to think that people in the US should not have the right to own firearms.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
Not sure why you include the qualifier "gun" in "gun homicide".
Gunners can attack from a distance and one person with even a semi-automatic one can shoot multiple people in a short time.

Most countries have tighter gun laws than the U.S, and yes, many really do better than the U.S, especially when to comes down to assassination of celebrities.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Ok, well most importantly I guess is the fact that there doesn't seem to be any reason for us to believe that restrictive policies, or voiding the 2nd amendment will result in less homicide in the United States. At least not with information that has been presented so far in this thread.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
Hoping for more posts from people in countries with tighter gun laws, this is a U.K-based site, and the U.K is one of those countries. Fact is that guns are the most powerful handheld weapons of all, so yes there is a reason to believe that at least the restriction of semi-automatic and thus fully automatic ones will indeed help.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Personal opinion, I don't get the gun culture. I see no good reason to carry a gun around all the time, expecting that I might have to shoot somebody out of self-defence.

I sorta felt the same way. I owned a couple guns in the US but never was really interested in carrying one with me. It is a bit of a hassle, especially if you live on the boarder near a different state that has different gun laws-then you have to be carefully not to accidently break the law simply by driving to far. I was probably just to lazy to deal with all that shit.

Although this is perhaps a cultural bias I have. Especially when you are living in a country where practically nobody else has a gun. It's kind of a cycle. When you promote gun carrying, you make people more nervous about others having guns who could shoot you, so you promote more gun carrying out of fear that others might shoot you, etc.

Well I think it is the fear of criminals is what makes most people nervous. Criminals are not allowed to have guns in the US (and yet they have them). Which leads to the question "Why not take away the guns from the criminals first before you take them away from law-abiding citizens?" That then leads to a sort of cycle.

Interestingly, it seems that all of the 1st world countries that have enacted the toughest gun control laws in the last 60 years or so, already had extremely low homicide rates to start with at the time of their enactment compared with the US. So low I don't see you can really calculate the effect of their stricter policies. (Where there 33 less murders in a particular year in Australia because of tough new gun laws or were there simply just 33 more violent criminals who were already in prison that year?)
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Hoping for more posts from people in countries with tighter gun laws, this is a U.K-based site, and the U.K is one of those countries. Fact is that guns are the most powerful handheld weapons of all, so yes there is a reason to believe that at least the restriction of semi-automatic and thus fully automatic ones will indeed help.

I am a dual citizen actually. I am from the US but live mostly in Germany the last 15 years, where it is nearly impossible to own a gun legally.
(What difference does it make where I live? )

I think it's dangerous to suggest taking rights away from people unless you have a very good reason for doing so and you really know what you are talking about. Democracy is ruined by people who seem only interested in feel-good politics and by people are too lazy to even conceptualize a clear goal or present evidence.

I would bet dollars to donuts that you are posting this without bothering to have an understanding of what the gun control policies currently are in the US, first. Fully automatic weapon are basically banned already. I doubt you would be able to explain why you think semi-automatic firearms are more dangerous than say, single-action. What about double-action?

If you do live in a country that has very strict policies against guns, as I pointed out earlier in my reply to Nessilig, it probably didn't even make sense for you to enact these laws in the first place because you would have been living in a country with a very extremely low homicide rate already. Now you will never get these rights back. So please excuse me for not thinking that this makes you an expert in domestic policy.

I don't know for sure what would happen if stricter policies or a complete ban on all guns in the US occurred. I think it would probably be a bad idea. If anyone has evidence to the contrary I would be very happy consider it. If we could get the homicide rate down to .3 or something like that would be all for it. But just saying "Guns are bad, mmm-k?" is not evidence.
 
arg-fallbackName="Myrtonos"/>
I am a dual citizen actually. I am from the US but live mostly in Germany the last 15 years, where it is nearly impossible to own a gun legally.
You said before that you are an American. In most countries, it's nearly impossible to own a gun legally. Yes, it makes a difference whether you come from a country with very tight gun laws or a country where the enactment of them is hindered by a constitution.
I think it's dangerous to suggest taking rights away from people unless you have a very good reason for doing so and you really know what you are talking about. Democracy is ruined by people who seem only interested in feel-good politics and by people are too lazy to even conceptualize a clear goal or present evidence.
How about taking right away from Americans that the rest of the world (even Canadians) doesn't have? Anything dangerous about that?
If you do live in a country that has very strict policies against guns, as I pointed out earlier in my reply to Nessilig, it probably didn't even make sense for you to enact these laws in the first place because you would have been living in a country with a very extremely low homicide rate already.
Yes, Australia (my country) has policed against guns as strict as the majority of the world, in fact, practically any country that does not have a constitutionally granted right to bear arms, this tells me that it's the U.S constitution that has prevented such laws from being enacted in the U.S.
I would bet dollars to donuts that you are posting this without bothering to have an understanding of what the gun control policies currently are in the US, first. Fully automatic weapon are basically banned already. I doubt you would be able to explain why you think semi-automatic firearms are more dangerous than say, single-action. What about double-action?
I post this with an understanding that gun control policies in most countries are stricter than what the U.S constitution allows in the U.S. One person with one semi-automatic firearm can shoot a whole group of people in a really short time, and any loaded gun can be used for attack from a distance.
 
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