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Guns and Intent

  • Thread starter Deleted member 42253
  • Start date
arg-fallbackName="Greg the Grouper"/>
Personally, I'm in support of firearm ownership. This may only apply to the US, but like any good American, I look at a world map and everywhere else in my mind just says "Here There Be Dragons".

I believe that your average person of economic means similar to my own (as an example, someone who can purchase a house along with anyone that has less economic means), in our current system, can only manifest their own agency, their own capacity to change their society, through physical means (ranging anywhere from voting, to protesting, to violence). Being a firearm, I'd think this pertains more to violence, but simply put, I'd view an attempt by higher authority to remove firearms as a means by which said authority reduces the agency of the common man in society, which I am wholeheartedly against.

While I understand that this inevitably leads to conflict, as well as the loss of innocent life, I feel that reducing our agency in society is a far worse outcome. For similar reasons, I'd think of any action impeding a person's right to vote, such as redlining, shutting down voting booths, identification cards for voting, and removing a felon's right to vote, are all borderline treasonous actions.

I'd have no problem with a population willingly disarming themselves, though, and I would hope that someone could find themselves living in a society where firearms are completely unnecessary.

EDIT: For greater clarification, I would differentiate between 'physical means' and 'economic means', essentially individual action and individual purchasing power.
 
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arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Im not much of a pro-gun guy personally. I've owned some in my life and found them too much of a hassle to be worth the time. I used to conceal carry. You have to be careful. Some people carry all the time. I dont know how they do it..
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 42253"/>
Really? I've already been shot at twice before with real bullets by real people who were trying to kill me. Once I was actually inside my home but they were shooting from the outside so I guess that doesnt count.
Hell there are people all over the world who would kill you like a chicken just for the fun of it and have a big party afterwards. Location is everything..
Location eh ... didnt you say you were living in Germany?
No one is getting shot in Germany.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 42253"/>
Rather than become a pathetic victim (which only makes you look more stupid/dishonest/disingenuous), you could try learning, but repeated history in a very, very short time has shown us that you're not really interested in that.
You seem to have set your mind on victimizing me ... you know, the insults are starting to pile up by now.
But hey .. whos keeping track?
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Location eh ... didnt you say you were living in Germany?
No one is getting shot in Germany.
Well, yes. I currently live in Germany. Thank you for getting that part right. You brought up Americans so I am talking about what happened in the US. It shouldnt be that hard for you to follow...sheesh..
 
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arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Nah, not gonna bother with this anymore ... seems pointless when you have people that argue that guns are not meant for killing people and then go full on Apocalypse Now.

Translation: I can't support my contentions and also refuse to acknowledge my errors, but I will pretend it's everyone else that's at fault.

And of course, you do in fact 'bother' as you continue the discussion immediately afterwards:

To even be able to get anywhere 2 things need to be accepted first, that guns are weapons and that guns do not belong in the hands of average Joe. And ... just go over the thread so far ... even the fact that guns are weapons was being disputed.

No one disputed that guns are weapons - why are you intent on mischaracterizing arguments?

Guns do not belong in the hands of the average Joe in countries with laws against unqualified gun ownership. Meanwhile, in nations that allow private gun ownership, factually they are entitled to own guns.

Again, to recapitulate your ideas into a more sensible phrasing: you think that guns shouldn't be available to the general public under all but a few circumstances. I expect that many people here would agree with that formulation - although some will disagree and you can then contend directly with them between your values and opinions.

But stating your opinion as fact, well that just means no one's going to agree with you and there's nothing to discuss except for the problem of you stating your opinions as facts.
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Then I come and tell you, that no one is gonna break into your house to kill you. Thats an irrational fear.

Says you.

Of course, that's complete bullshit you are - yet again - pretending is fact.

Crime statistics from all nations will show ample examples of violent breaking and entering, armed burglary and the likes.

That you haven't experienced this situation is great - very happy for you.... but declaring that something can't happen just because you haven't experienced it is really dopey.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
I believe that your average person of economic means similar to my own (as an example, someone who can purchase a house along with anyone that has less economic means), in our current system, can only manifest their own agency, their own capacity to change their society, through physical means (ranging anywhere from voting, to protesting, to violence). Being a firearm, I'd think this pertains more to violence, but simply put, I'd view an attempt by higher authority to remove firearms as a means by which said authority reduces the agency of the common man in society, which I am wholeheartedly against.
I don't disagree with any of this. I do think, however, there's a balance. My personal view has always been that education is the shortest route to solving problems, and this is no exception.

The biggest problem is, I think, that your voting analogy goes both ways. There's an evil little part of me that thinks there are certain people who should never be allowed to vote. :D
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Armed Burglary in the US can result in a life sentence.

Despite it never ever happening except in films, it seems that every state has explicit laws to deal with this fictional event.

Not sure how that works out for someone who apparently believes that asserting things overrides factual evidence.
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Location eh ... didnt you say you were living in Germany?
No one is getting shot in Germany.


In Germany, annual deaths resulting from firearms total

2018: 815
2017: 819
2016: 831
2015: 848
2014: 824
2013: 931
2012: 822
2011: 880
2010: 907
2009: 939
2008: 954
2007: 962
2006: 957
2005: 1,045
2004: 1,148
2003: 1,123
2002: 1,061
2001: 1,103
2000: 1,116
1999: 1,201
1998: 1,164

No one, not one single person.... except those thousands... but *handwave*... no one, nobody at all ever gets shot in Germany.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 42253"/>
Yes Sparhafoc, according to crime statistics it is extremly unlikely for you to get killed by someone. So unlikely actually, that its safe to say, that it is not going to happen to you.
You are even more likely to kill yourself, then to be killed by someone, nevermind accidents.

And thats America, the homicide rate in the rest of the western world is much lower.

So yes, it is fact that no one is going to kill you, individually.


And there are living 83 million people in Germany, yes, no one is getting shot in Germany. The number is so low compared to the population, its irrelevant to you as an individual.

Which is why, your fear of getting killed, is irrational.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
A bit off topic, but one thing I dont like about guns is that they limit the amount of "free speech" you have. I'm often a loud and probably annoying person in real life. I am boisterous. But you cant go around running your mouth and talking bullshit like I like to do when you have a gun on you.
 
arg-fallbackName="Led Zeppelin"/>
Yes Sparhafoc, according to crime statistics it is extremly unlikely for you to get killed by someone. So unlikely actually, that its safe to say, that it is not going to happen to you.
You are even more likely to kill yourself, then to be killed by someone, nevermind accidents.

And thats America, the homicide rate in the rest of the western world is much lower.

So yes, it is fact that no one is going to kill you, individually.


And there are living 83 million people in Germany, yes, no one is getting shot in Germany. The number is so low compared to the population, its irrelevant to you as an individual.

Which is why, your fear of getting killed, is irrational.
Jesus Christ! WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT?? Just arguing for the sake of arguing? Why didn't you answer my question?
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Yes Sparhafoc, according to crime statistics it is extremly unlikely for you to get killed by someone. So unlikely actually, that its safe to say, that it is not going to happen to you.

Again mate, sorry but your thinking is so outrageously irrational - what a pile of fetid jizz!

Depending on where you are in the world, anything from thousands to tens of thousands of homicides happen each year.

I have no idea how you think statistics makes someone immune to being on the wrong side of those statistics, but I've no doubt you are going to repeat your asinine claims despite this.


You are even more likely to kill yourself, then to be killed by someone, nevermind accidents.

We're not comparing your likelihood of death though, are we?

No one's actually arguing that your chances of being killed with a gun are high - if I am wrong, you can very quickly and easily show me who said it by quoting them.

Otherwise, I see you once again manufacturing yet more diversion so you don't have to acknowledge the errors you've made.



And thats America, the homicide rate in the rest of the western world is much lower.

Brilliant, so you cite a page showing that literally thousands of people die to homicide supposedly in support of your contention that no one ever gets killed, that it only happens on TV etc.

How is anyone supposed to hold a conversation with someone who can literally cite evidence contradicting their own position?


So yes, it is fact that no one is going to kill you, individually.

This is factually bullshit - you are talking complete hogwash and you've once again found yourself obliged to defend the indefensible simply because your ego won't let you acknowledge your errors.


And there are living 83 million people in Germany, yes, no one is getting shot in Germany.

Yeah, except for the thousands of people shot and killed in Germany -except for those thousands, no one gets shot and killed in Germany.


The number is so low compared to the population, its irrelevant to you as an individual.

The number is LOW?

But this is yet again a contradiction.

It is literally impossible that these two claims can both be right:

- no one is getting shot in Germany
- the number (of people shot in Germany) is low

Yet you declared both of these assertions right next to each other without realizing you are contradicting yourself. And you are no doubt now going to tell me that I am being difficult or something, once again ignoring the terribly obvious flaw in your reasoning.
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
A bit off topic, but one thing I dont like about guns is that they limit the amount of "free speech" you have. I'm often a loud and probably annoying person in real life. I am boisterous. But you cant go around running your mouth and talking bullshit like I like to do when you have a gun on you.

Why not?
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>
Let's have a pop at trying out this brand new form of logic...


In 2019, 150,865 British citizens died of cancer. Except for those 150,865 people - not ONE SINGLE PERSON died of cancer.

In the same year, only 55,064 British citizens died of heart failure - so because you're statistically more likely to die from cancer than heart disease, you actually can't die from heart disease. It's not possible.

As it's impossible to die from heart disease, worrying about heart disease is irrational - you can eat junk food, smoke and take no exercise: you'll be perfectly fine!
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
Yes Sparhafoc, according to crime statistics it is extremly unlikely for you to get killed by someone. So unlikely actually, that its safe to say, that it is not going to happen to you.
So we can add probabilities and statistical analysis to the burgeoning litany of topics you confidently hold forth on with an understanding so small that the probability you actually say anything correct about the topic is so close to zero as to be, by your own reasoning, impossible.

A proper understanding of how this all works is to begin with the recognition that this is a form of the lottery fallacy, and that its resolution is found in the simple observation that the statistics demonstrate categorically that the probability that somebody will be murdered is precisely one (I may be overstating that slightly; it could be that it asymptotically approaches one, which doesn't materially affect the point).

It's also worth noting that being killed isn't the only threat, which highlights another dishonest discursive tactic, that of appealing to extremes.

Honestly, this is all so transparent.
 
arg-fallbackName="Sparhafoc"/>

The first law of holes, or the law of holes, is an adage which states: "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging"


Hole-300x222.jpg
 
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