Robert M. Price bit of controversy- Can anyone confirm?

So I'm in a few groups for people who enjoy fantasy and science fiction books. Today someone post the link below. Basically, there is an anthology being put together and several of the authors have pulled their work after seeing the forward written by one Robert M. Price who is also the editor. It apparently had some questionable views in it. That's not really for me to say I guess. My question is of course is this the same RMP we know from his work in New Testament studies? From his own website he has at least some interest in Lin Carter who was putting the thing together. The initial article lists RMP as the executor for Carter's work and Carter's wiki does indeed link to RMP. So it appears he's stepped into a bit of controversy at the least. That is assuming it's the same RMP and the wiki is correct.

Link: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/authors-ask-that-their-work-be-removed-from-flashing-swords-6/

His website where he lists being a fan of Lin Carter: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/fiction.htm

Wiki which links RMP as executor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Carter

Wow. It seems you are almost certainly right. Multiple paragraphs and the book list in wikipedia all independently seem to confirm this. If you cited this and are wrong, you certainly woldn't be criticised for it. And the historical overlap. It all fits/makes sense. Just my observations (no expertise) and a sci-fi/sword and sorcery fan.

What part of it is questionable? Apparently false rape accusations occur every now and then. People are objectified for various reasons, some are okay with it, some aren't.
But the worst part: what the hell is this preoccupation with censoring, silencing and canceling. We should want to hear even the most disturbing facts, so we can talk about it and find out how much is true in it.

leionaaad said:

Apparently false rape accusations occur every now and then.

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But at a much lower rate than actual rape accusations.

leionaaad said:

But the worst part: what the hell is this preoccupation with censoring, silencing and canceling.

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Do you have a problem with holding people accountable for their actions? Why?

leionaaad said:

We should want to hear even the most disturbing facts, so we can talk about it and find out how much is true in it.

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If they're facts - but what if they're not actually 'facts'? What if they're falsehoods which have been shown wrong over and over again to the point that not only are they falsehoods, they're wilful falsehoods? What if those wilful falsehoods cause real harm to the people they target? Why should 'we' want to hear them yet again? Why do 'we' need to continually reinvent the wheel? Why shouldn't 'we' expect people to just do some basic reading instead of having to give a platform to wilful falsehoods which we know cause real harm in order for somebody, somewhere who's too lazy to do the basic reading to decide what's true or not?

But the worst part: what the hell is this preoccupation with censoring, silencing and canceling.

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My assumption is that you can't really substantiate that this is a major factor anywhere or in any way. My assumption is that you've jumped on a bandwagon where you're agreeing with an apparently reasonable superficial position without understanding that you're actually lending support to a euphemism which intentionally covers over underlying factors designed to cause harm, but which needs the support of manipulated individuals to lend the appearance of social legitimacy.

I may be wrong, but I've seen this so many times now, it's becoming commonplace.

he_who_is_nobody said:

Do you have a problem with holding people accountable for their actions?

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Absolutely not. However, what people say or write are not exactly actions. There are very few specific areas where such things can do SOME harm. I don't see how the musings of Robert Price harmed.

Sparhafoc said:

What if they're falsehoods which have been shown wrong over and over again to the point that not only are they falsehoods, they're wilful falsehoods?

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Right. Let me give you a very concrete example: If I want to buy Hitler's "Mein Kampf" I would have to go to extreme lengths to get it, at least in some parts of europe. I think it's even illegal in Germany. However, if I would be curious what was in Hitler's mind I would not be able to read it.

I hear in america comedians and speakers are canceled quite often, because some ultra-sensitive morons can't tell a joke from real harmful speech. This phenomenon even got a name "cancel culture"
I ask you again: which part of Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed?

leionaaad said:

Right. Let me give you a very concrete example: If I want to buy Hitler's "Mein Kampf" I would have to go to extreme lengths to get it, at least in some parts of europe. I think it's even illegal in Germany. However, if I would be curious what was in Hitler's mind I would not be able to read it.

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For me, that's a very odd response to my post; it seems predicated entirely on ignoring what I wrote then furnishing a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Why would you be 'curious' about what was in Hitler's mind given that what was in Hitler's mind produced the industrial murder of millions of people and the further deaths of millions more through warfare? What kind of curiosity do you have?

And why does your curiosity trump the actual harm such works represent to people?

The parts of Europe where you'd have to go to great lengths to read it would be in Germany, where it's banned. It's banned for a pretty good reason; the fact that Hitler's Nazism was a deeply shameful episode for the country which took a decade or more of reconciliation to overcome, and because they're well aware that Nazism isn't actually dead, just repressed. People who go to great lengths to read it are already doing so for a reason that suggests they know exactly what they're going to find in the book, and that's the thing they want to find. Most people can just read up on what Hitler did without needing to read his manifesto.

leionaaad said:

I hear in america comedians and speakers are canceled quite often, because some ultra-sensitive morons can't tell a joke from real harmful speech. This phenomenon even got a name "cancel culture"

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You hear that, do you? I wonder where you hear that. Is it on the internet, by chance? You can hear a lot of things on the internet depending on where you go looking. It's the modern equivalent of 'bloke down the pub says, so it must be true'. Recall what I said about substantiation? How is what you hear substantiation?

And yes, the label is a euphemism, as I said in the post you're nominally responding to.

Perhaps you could respond to what I've written - if I wasn't clear, feel free to ask, but to so obviously ignore what I wrote makes me wonder what would be the point of engaging with you further.

leionaaad said:

However, what people say or write are not exactly actions.

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Did you really say that speech is not action? If speech is not an action, then what is it?

leionaaad said:

There are very few specific areas where such things can do SOME harm.

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leionaaad said:

I don't see how the musings of Robert Price harmed.

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You obviously do not understand what has happened here. Price is the editor of an anthology, and people that were tasked to write pieces for that anthology pulled out because they do not want to be associated with Price (for things he has said/done). Honestly, what is wrong with that? Do the other authors not have the right not to be associated with someone they do not like? As of the original posting of this, Price was not even pulled as the editor. Hard to say he is being censored when that is the case.

leionaaad said:

I hear in america comedians and speakers are canceled quite often, because some ultra-sensitive morons can't tell a joke from real harmful speech.

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I hear that too. Too bad no one ever provides evidence of this being the case. In fact, the only evidence that can be provided on this subject shows that the "Left" is less likely to "cancel" speech. So much for that narrative.

I ask you again: which part of Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed?

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First, I will ask you what the hell this has to do with anything?

In the OP above, the first link doesn't indicate anything like 'Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed' - what it actually shows is that 2 authors who were having their stories published in an anthology read Price's introduction and decided that THEY didn't want THEIR books included in that anthology. No indication whatsoever of Price being 'canceled'.

The 2nd link goes to Price's website, so clearly has no suggestion whatsoever of "Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed".

The 3rd link is to a Wiki entry on Lin Carter and again has no suggestion whatsoever of "Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed".

So where exactly are you getting this idea that "Price's writing is so bad it cannot even be read or discussed"?

Isn't it an inescapable fact that only you said that?

And if it's just you who said that, and the concept exists solely in your mind, then how is anyone else meant to respond to it?

Are you Angry Jack, leionaaad?

Watch the short video series and ask yourself whether I am being unfair or not.

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Wouldn't "ultra-sensitive morons" also include people fretting about whether some guy got his preface canceled in an anthology of works by other authors? Or is there an alternative description for someone like that?

he_who_is_nobody said:

You obviously do not understand what has happened here. Price is the editor of an anthology, and people that were tasked to write pieces for that anthology pulled out because they do not want to be associated with Price (for things he has said/done). Honestly, what is wrong with that?

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Thanks, you cleared it up. Fair enough, I misunderstood the situation. It's really not like I put a huge effort into this.

leionaaad said:

Thanks, you cleared it up. Fair enough, I misunderstood the situation. It's really not like I put a huge effort into this.

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Are you saying you didn't even read what Price wrote?

Why the outrage then?

Go and look at what he wrote, then think about how appropriate it is for a preface to an anthology of fantasy fiction stories.



Like what the holy hairy fucks has this got to do with the anthology in question?

Forget concern about the views expressed therein, and consider why anyone would consider that relevant, let alone appropriate for the market and audience they're intending to sell books to.

Sparhafoc said:

Are you saying you didn't even read what Price wrote?

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Course I read it. I read it again now. I still don't see why this text is a problem for some. Obviously is not fantasy but if he thought this is appropriate...meh. It's his project. At most the ones who worked on it should have negotiated with him, but whatever.

leionaaad said:

Thanks, you cleared it up. Fair enough, I misunderstood the situation. It's really not like I put a huge effort into this.

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That does seem to be the essence of the narrative about cancel culture: many people acting on their emotions to situations they do not know much about. It is a wonderful example of projection in action.

he_who_is_nobody said:

It is a wonderful example of projection in action

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Indeed, I put together partial information and projected into it what I despise the most.

leionaaad said:

Course I read it. I read it again now. I still don't see why this text is a problem for some.

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And I expect that they similarly don't see why what you think is relevant, or why you might arbitrate the validity of their misgivings. How exactly are you related to this project?

leionaaad said:

Obviously is not fantasy but if he thought this is appropriate...meh. It's his project. At most the ones who worked on it should have negotiated with him, but whatever.

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I'd say it is absolutely a form of fantasy, just not a relevant or commercial one.

Sure, it's his project and he's allowed to scuttle it if he wants; perhaps he should have negotiated it with them?

Are you a fan of fantasy anthologies then? Or perhaps one of the specific authors? Are you disappointed that these authors chose to have their work removed?

Sparhafoc said:

Are you a fan of fantasy anthologies then? Or perhaps one of the specific authors? Are you disappointed that these authors chose to have their work removed?

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I am a fan of fantasy, but working 1 and a half jobs and a hobby that requires dedication doesn't leave much time or energy for reading. It was mostly a knee-jerk reaction like "here we go again, once more some bullshit outcry over something really stupid".
I see now that I misunderstood the entire context.

leionaaad said:

I am a fan of fantasy, but working 1 and a half jobs and a hobby that requires dedication doesn't leave much time or energy for reading. It was mostly a knee-jerk reaction like "here we go again, once more some bullshit outcry over something really stupid".
I see now that I misunderstood the entire context.

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Don't you feel like an ironic parody though? The same kind of substanceless outrage culture that I believe you believe you decry led you to join a website to express an opinion on a topic you then said you didn't really put any effort into understanding, and what turned out to be a bullshit outcry over something really stupid?

Given that you had no vested interest, what so motivated you? Maybe I am wrong, but it seems you weren't even planning to buy the book, and none of this had any effect on you in any way shape or form.

Don't think I am being an arse to you (I'm not very subtle when I want to be an arse to someone) - I really think the internet is having a genuinely horrible effect on us, and those among us able to see it have to start pushing back and challenging reasonable people to see what it's doing to them.

I actually love fantasy too - albeit probably more epic, convoluted, and dark shit than would have been posted in this book.

I am also an old school gamer (well, I am old, and a gamer at least) but never really had a fucking clue what was going on with the Gamergate thing. All I saw was that one of my favourite YT channels on --science-- suddenly became a year long stream of abuse about this woman - Anita Sarkeesian - that I'd never heard about and who didn't really seem to be threatening anything at all, certainly nowhere near to the point of warranting the level of mob hatred being directed at her. That channel stopped making videos about science; its membership increased ten-fold; the community stopped being about a bunch of people revelling in the wonder of scientific inquiry and skepticism, and became full of angry obsessive asshats who appeared only interested in litanies of violent imagery directed at anyone not conforming to their group-think; and I stopped subscribing to it as that was not at all what I'd subscribed for in the first place.

Then I recently watched that YT series above, and it became clearer. Well, what it actually illuminated is a phenomenon I was already all too familiar with having seen first-hand many times how the pipeline to extremist thought has become so ingrained in YT and other sites' "culture". I've watched a friend spiral down over the course of just 3 years from being a fun-loving, easy-going dipshit to a ranting race-supremacist conspiracy theorist who doesn't even realize when he cites actual Nazis in support of his 'arguments' as if they're credible and convincing.

I genuinely suggest you have a watch of that series - it's salutary. If we are what we think, then we should be bloody demanding of the ideas we allow to take up residence.

Sparhafoc said:

Don't you feel like an ironic parody though?

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Sure, a bit. I already admitted. While my initial behavior was idiotic I think it brought up some things. Looks like I am in a minority when I support freedom of any kind of speech. Well, looks like this forum is not really for me. I only subscribed because there was a discussion with Aron Ra that I wanted to follow. Alas, it died down.

What motivated me? well, probably I was influenced by discussions with friends, one friend of mine who lives in Paris said there are people who don't even let you joke about some things like. Hearing all the cancel-culture amplified my paranoia. Recently Facebook and Twitter decided to shut down the account of a clown who was about to fade away anyway.

And that's all. I do understand the need to distance yourself from things do not agree with, so when they explained is not really about canceling things I recognized my error.