BrachioPEP
Member
Can I or this forum help fill a needful gap in the market?
You know the people or tactic, where someone does you a favour or lends you money and you (perhaps are made to) feel you owe them and you don’t like it? As an evangelist, preacher, teacher and speaker, I taught people about God, the Gospel and the Bible. I prayed for them, listened to their personal problems, gave assistance, led Bible studies, prayer meeting, ran youth or Sunday school groups and clubs and they trusted me. When visiting a church, they would pay my expenses or gift me something. My only friends/family were all believers. What do you do when the only real thing that unites you all, is broken and you no longer believe?
Here are some rambles on music for ex believers, and then the wider, more serious issue of transitioning from believer to unbeliever, which must be like coming out as gay, when it was not acceptable or even legal. I hope this touches some people to respond or bring help or hope.
Or have you ever got all dressed up with nowhere to go? Perhaps you were stood up or something got cancelled or you just want to wear that thing you haven’t worn for ages, but need an excuse?
I used to write songs and sing a bit. In my days/years as a Christian, there were sometimes secular songs that I would transplant Christian lyrics to. Gordon Lightfoot’s, ‘If you could read my mind’ was one such example I remember, which I re-wrote and recorded with a gospel message instead.
I felt bad about this for two reasons. Firstly, I was stealing music, in effect. Taking advantage of someone else’s work/gift and just adding/replacing words. And secondly, the whole issue of inspiration – that music by believers was for God (and siblings in Christ) and supposedly inspired. Yet half of it (the song) was not only stolen, but not inspired or meant for God or godly people or purposes in the first place, as it was secular.
I guess it could work the other way round. Secularists/non-believers re-writing Christian music lyrics to a catchy tune. That too is an unholy hybridization. Transposing inspiration into secular wording, (or the other way round, secularising inspiration?).
To me, there were (and are) two worlds, but that does not mean they are incompatible.
There is an irony in my experience. At the age of 18, following a dramatic conversion tom Christianity, I destroyed my full collection of records, concert tickets and music memorabilia. Had I liked Bing Crosby, Vera Lynn or the Carpenters, I’d probably have been alright. But I was a rocker. My collection was full of Satanic imagery, words and connotations. Amongst the collection, were three very rare coloured vinyl albums by Motorhead (a red, blue and a white one). I destroyed them in from of my mate, an avid Motorhead fan, along with 2-3 hundred records in all. I removed each cover, tore it into pieces and then snapped the records and stuck them into a skip. He just could not believe it, but then he didn’t understand my conversion.
The denomination or flavour of Christianity I had become attached to, did not approve of the devil’s music and I was purging myself and it all made sense. Some would not even listen to any secular/non-Christian music. In fact this restriction to the more evil music was a hard pill to swallow. Whilst I had destroyed every record, any time I heard anything non-Christian on the radio or elsewhere, I sometimes felt bad that I had destroyed certain records, which led me to think down the slippery slope. Well if that is OK, then this is OK, which means this is fine too. So guilt/loos often returned to my mind.
I mentioned irony. That is because I am in the opposite scenario now. I have digital copies of all the music I like and had, before, but I also now have all the Christian music I then turned to, which no longer has the same meaning or inspiration value.
So what do I do with it? The answer is, I listen to it and enjoy it. The problem is, you can’t just listen to Christian music for the tune. The gospel or Christian theme/message within it, is inextricably linked, because the focus ion so strong and specific. By comparison, it’s like going into a pub which gives free drinks, but you are a recovering alcoholic. The temptation is undeniable. Christian music makes you think the same way as you always did at the time. Another example would be going to visit the statue you used to worship when you believed in the deity and still ritualise and enjoy it, but you no longer believe in the deity. It’s a strange situation.
A secular example might be having been raised in a UFO cult, having discovered the leader was a fraud. But you still love all the people and rituals and love UFOs, but realize intellectually that they don’t exist, but your heart is still very much there. Do you remove all of the past, stick with it or hover somewhere in between?
Christian music is certainly inspired, and by (belief in) God, just as lots of music is inspired by something or someone. That particular inspiration cannot be removed and rests primarily with the creator/writer, although it can be shared with those who can relate or take something from it. Like many groups of likeminded people, I can very much relate to Christian music, especially within the denominations in which certain themes are prevalent, e.g. salvation/conversion. I used to think that the oneness of how we all felt towards this type of music was strongly evident of the reality of divine existence and inspiration. But it is no different in other groups of people who share a strong, common bond, and it is entirely natural. The draw I still have to it is not evidence of having fallen away and having a longing to return to the fold, it is the recollection of my time within the community and how I felt about God. It was a big, long and enjoyable part of my life and I have no compulsion to erase or hide it. I have no issue with any of the people; I have almost nothing bad to say (but I realise that this may not be everyone’s experience).
So, when I say there are no ex-Christians, I refer to my experience of evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, be it Baptist, Brethren, Pentecostal, Methodist and some Church of England/Scotland communities. Communities that relate to a time when one became a believer rather than were born or Christened one. Other fundamentalist groups (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Latter day saints etc. will most certainly have similar testimonies. But my perspective is that one becomes a Christian, and that happens when one repents, accepts Jesus Christ into one’s life and is born again. This is the only believer there is, from where I came from and if/as there is no Jesus, one cannot become a true believer, so you also (logically) can’t be an ex-believer.
When I say, ‘Come, all ye who thirst, hunger or are heavy burdened and I will give you rest’, I refer to anyone who has doubts, is thinking of leaving or has left, no matter how long ago, a cult or denomination or religion. There are many communities numbering many hundreds of thousands, who know how you feel and have been there and who can give you help, reassurance, support and a place to talk or feel better, even at home. Some of you will have had good or bad experiences. You may be wondering about what others feel (or will feel) about you if you have doubts, don’t believe or want to leave. You may not be sure if it is right. You may have an inside commitment, marriage, children, be wholly dependent on others inside or even be a church leader. Or you may have the unbearable worry of hell which forever haunts you as the sticking point. There are answers and some things take time to digest as intellect is often outweighed in power and time by feelings.
‘The king has got no clothes on’, and/or ‘all dressed up and no place to go’. These also refer to the conflict between something and nothing (in terms of a god or the supernatural). Is it possible that you could have been doing and thinking and sharing and believing and experiencing everything you have done, without the focus being a reality? Was god a empty promise of a wonderful dress or suit, and you were actually naked and S/he/it did not actually exist, but all the effects were built to support such a coat? Or was all your effort in dressing up, spiritually, actually going nowhere? If God did/does not actually exist, what is left to point at with an evidence laden stick to actually say, ‘so how do you account for this?’. Are there not naturalistic possible explanations, and only the things that are left are supported on mere illusions? All of those healings. Did you actually see anything with your own eyes that is patently supernatural or is there doubt, room for error/re-consideration or strong dependency on the testimony of others who might have a motive to make God look good/better? To what extent do feelings or emotions come into it? And to what extent are things like prayer and everyday life perfectly in accordance with the ups and downs of every-day life anywhere, whether God exists in the hearts and minds of people or not?
You can still enjoy the music, the Christian story and the way it has been filtered and moulded to suit your denomination, and you can experience the same feelings you once had. The only difference is that of perspective and that you no longer consider it to be true, based on the evidence and not largely feelings. Those feelings are still there because the feelings are real but natural and not specific to a conversion or a god reality. This may seem a new or radical concept, and it only applies if you choose to relish or enjoy or include your previous position. It’s an option.
I was raised in a non-religious family. I was interested in the occult but was primarily an atheist. I had a dramatic conversion and dedicated my life to God. My whole family became Christians. I went to Bible college/seminary, trained for four years to be a pastor and did just that - preaching and starting a church before turning to teaching as a profession. I was a believer for over two decades, have attended healing crusades all around the world and whilst I do not profess to be anyone of any importance, I have experience as an Evangelical and a Pentecostal Christian as a new, short, long and leadership term position, so I would argue that I have as good an idea of what this form of Christianity and Christians from the inside as any others do and I have been out for nearly two decades now. Of course, it would be easy to go down the, ‘no true Christian/Scotsman’ fallacy, and consider me to have been conned, backslidden, deceived, blinded or have bad blood. I still attend church with my family. I have no issue with it or the people I know. I just know where and why I stand, and can do so confidently and do not actively try to change anyone’s mind who have no such interest in discussion. But I do want to assist people who are stuck, struggling, doubting or confused. Sometimes the best thing is to stay involved as a Christian. My friend and previous landlady who is in her 80s (and a religious dying child) are a good examples of where doing nothing is probably best.
I have mainly focussed on one small aspect – that of music. Can you relate to any of this or is it something you have considered or want to mention?
Perhaps I can help or point you somewhere or start something and build a welcoming community of people who are in a similar position on a larger scale, relating to anything to do with de-conversion or post conversion that is away from those who you seek freedom or reconciliation or somewhere private or confidential? Suggestions welcome.
I also have a specialism in the creation/evolution issue if anyone needs help or has questions in as far as being involved or getting a proper grasp of it. Creationism can be a very persuasive position that seems to go hand in hand with many theistic positions and there is a well-oiled marketing strategy to make it do just that, including slick debates. But with regards to actual science and evidence (as opposed to some big words, qualifications in something and great orators), that can be tested or put to peers in the relevant fields, it does not in any way stack up.
Tell me what you think.
You know the people or tactic, where someone does you a favour or lends you money and you (perhaps are made to) feel you owe them and you don’t like it? As an evangelist, preacher, teacher and speaker, I taught people about God, the Gospel and the Bible. I prayed for them, listened to their personal problems, gave assistance, led Bible studies, prayer meeting, ran youth or Sunday school groups and clubs and they trusted me. When visiting a church, they would pay my expenses or gift me something. My only friends/family were all believers. What do you do when the only real thing that unites you all, is broken and you no longer believe?
Here are some rambles on music for ex believers, and then the wider, more serious issue of transitioning from believer to unbeliever, which must be like coming out as gay, when it was not acceptable or even legal. I hope this touches some people to respond or bring help or hope.
- There are no ex Christians
- (but only ex Christians will relate to this).
- Come, all ye who thirst, hunger or are heavy burdened and I will give you rest.
- The king has got no clothes on.
- All dressed up and no place to go.
Or have you ever got all dressed up with nowhere to go? Perhaps you were stood up or something got cancelled or you just want to wear that thing you haven’t worn for ages, but need an excuse?
I used to write songs and sing a bit. In my days/years as a Christian, there were sometimes secular songs that I would transplant Christian lyrics to. Gordon Lightfoot’s, ‘If you could read my mind’ was one such example I remember, which I re-wrote and recorded with a gospel message instead.
I felt bad about this for two reasons. Firstly, I was stealing music, in effect. Taking advantage of someone else’s work/gift and just adding/replacing words. And secondly, the whole issue of inspiration – that music by believers was for God (and siblings in Christ) and supposedly inspired. Yet half of it (the song) was not only stolen, but not inspired or meant for God or godly people or purposes in the first place, as it was secular.
I guess it could work the other way round. Secularists/non-believers re-writing Christian music lyrics to a catchy tune. That too is an unholy hybridization. Transposing inspiration into secular wording, (or the other way round, secularising inspiration?).
To me, there were (and are) two worlds, but that does not mean they are incompatible.
There is an irony in my experience. At the age of 18, following a dramatic conversion tom Christianity, I destroyed my full collection of records, concert tickets and music memorabilia. Had I liked Bing Crosby, Vera Lynn or the Carpenters, I’d probably have been alright. But I was a rocker. My collection was full of Satanic imagery, words and connotations. Amongst the collection, were three very rare coloured vinyl albums by Motorhead (a red, blue and a white one). I destroyed them in from of my mate, an avid Motorhead fan, along with 2-3 hundred records in all. I removed each cover, tore it into pieces and then snapped the records and stuck them into a skip. He just could not believe it, but then he didn’t understand my conversion.
The denomination or flavour of Christianity I had become attached to, did not approve of the devil’s music and I was purging myself and it all made sense. Some would not even listen to any secular/non-Christian music. In fact this restriction to the more evil music was a hard pill to swallow. Whilst I had destroyed every record, any time I heard anything non-Christian on the radio or elsewhere, I sometimes felt bad that I had destroyed certain records, which led me to think down the slippery slope. Well if that is OK, then this is OK, which means this is fine too. So guilt/loos often returned to my mind.
I mentioned irony. That is because I am in the opposite scenario now. I have digital copies of all the music I like and had, before, but I also now have all the Christian music I then turned to, which no longer has the same meaning or inspiration value.
So what do I do with it? The answer is, I listen to it and enjoy it. The problem is, you can’t just listen to Christian music for the tune. The gospel or Christian theme/message within it, is inextricably linked, because the focus ion so strong and specific. By comparison, it’s like going into a pub which gives free drinks, but you are a recovering alcoholic. The temptation is undeniable. Christian music makes you think the same way as you always did at the time. Another example would be going to visit the statue you used to worship when you believed in the deity and still ritualise and enjoy it, but you no longer believe in the deity. It’s a strange situation.
A secular example might be having been raised in a UFO cult, having discovered the leader was a fraud. But you still love all the people and rituals and love UFOs, but realize intellectually that they don’t exist, but your heart is still very much there. Do you remove all of the past, stick with it or hover somewhere in between?
Christian music is certainly inspired, and by (belief in) God, just as lots of music is inspired by something or someone. That particular inspiration cannot be removed and rests primarily with the creator/writer, although it can be shared with those who can relate or take something from it. Like many groups of likeminded people, I can very much relate to Christian music, especially within the denominations in which certain themes are prevalent, e.g. salvation/conversion. I used to think that the oneness of how we all felt towards this type of music was strongly evident of the reality of divine existence and inspiration. But it is no different in other groups of people who share a strong, common bond, and it is entirely natural. The draw I still have to it is not evidence of having fallen away and having a longing to return to the fold, it is the recollection of my time within the community and how I felt about God. It was a big, long and enjoyable part of my life and I have no compulsion to erase or hide it. I have no issue with any of the people; I have almost nothing bad to say (but I realise that this may not be everyone’s experience).
So, when I say there are no ex-Christians, I refer to my experience of evangelicalism and Pentecostalism, be it Baptist, Brethren, Pentecostal, Methodist and some Church of England/Scotland communities. Communities that relate to a time when one became a believer rather than were born or Christened one. Other fundamentalist groups (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Latter day saints etc. will most certainly have similar testimonies. But my perspective is that one becomes a Christian, and that happens when one repents, accepts Jesus Christ into one’s life and is born again. This is the only believer there is, from where I came from and if/as there is no Jesus, one cannot become a true believer, so you also (logically) can’t be an ex-believer.
When I say, ‘Come, all ye who thirst, hunger or are heavy burdened and I will give you rest’, I refer to anyone who has doubts, is thinking of leaving or has left, no matter how long ago, a cult or denomination or religion. There are many communities numbering many hundreds of thousands, who know how you feel and have been there and who can give you help, reassurance, support and a place to talk or feel better, even at home. Some of you will have had good or bad experiences. You may be wondering about what others feel (or will feel) about you if you have doubts, don’t believe or want to leave. You may not be sure if it is right. You may have an inside commitment, marriage, children, be wholly dependent on others inside or even be a church leader. Or you may have the unbearable worry of hell which forever haunts you as the sticking point. There are answers and some things take time to digest as intellect is often outweighed in power and time by feelings.
‘The king has got no clothes on’, and/or ‘all dressed up and no place to go’. These also refer to the conflict between something and nothing (in terms of a god or the supernatural). Is it possible that you could have been doing and thinking and sharing and believing and experiencing everything you have done, without the focus being a reality? Was god a empty promise of a wonderful dress or suit, and you were actually naked and S/he/it did not actually exist, but all the effects were built to support such a coat? Or was all your effort in dressing up, spiritually, actually going nowhere? If God did/does not actually exist, what is left to point at with an evidence laden stick to actually say, ‘so how do you account for this?’. Are there not naturalistic possible explanations, and only the things that are left are supported on mere illusions? All of those healings. Did you actually see anything with your own eyes that is patently supernatural or is there doubt, room for error/re-consideration or strong dependency on the testimony of others who might have a motive to make God look good/better? To what extent do feelings or emotions come into it? And to what extent are things like prayer and everyday life perfectly in accordance with the ups and downs of every-day life anywhere, whether God exists in the hearts and minds of people or not?
You can still enjoy the music, the Christian story and the way it has been filtered and moulded to suit your denomination, and you can experience the same feelings you once had. The only difference is that of perspective and that you no longer consider it to be true, based on the evidence and not largely feelings. Those feelings are still there because the feelings are real but natural and not specific to a conversion or a god reality. This may seem a new or radical concept, and it only applies if you choose to relish or enjoy or include your previous position. It’s an option.
I was raised in a non-religious family. I was interested in the occult but was primarily an atheist. I had a dramatic conversion and dedicated my life to God. My whole family became Christians. I went to Bible college/seminary, trained for four years to be a pastor and did just that - preaching and starting a church before turning to teaching as a profession. I was a believer for over two decades, have attended healing crusades all around the world and whilst I do not profess to be anyone of any importance, I have experience as an Evangelical and a Pentecostal Christian as a new, short, long and leadership term position, so I would argue that I have as good an idea of what this form of Christianity and Christians from the inside as any others do and I have been out for nearly two decades now. Of course, it would be easy to go down the, ‘no true Christian/Scotsman’ fallacy, and consider me to have been conned, backslidden, deceived, blinded or have bad blood. I still attend church with my family. I have no issue with it or the people I know. I just know where and why I stand, and can do so confidently and do not actively try to change anyone’s mind who have no such interest in discussion. But I do want to assist people who are stuck, struggling, doubting or confused. Sometimes the best thing is to stay involved as a Christian. My friend and previous landlady who is in her 80s (and a religious dying child) are a good examples of where doing nothing is probably best.
I have mainly focussed on one small aspect – that of music. Can you relate to any of this or is it something you have considered or want to mention?
Perhaps I can help or point you somewhere or start something and build a welcoming community of people who are in a similar position on a larger scale, relating to anything to do with de-conversion or post conversion that is away from those who you seek freedom or reconciliation or somewhere private or confidential? Suggestions welcome.
I also have a specialism in the creation/evolution issue if anyone needs help or has questions in as far as being involved or getting a proper grasp of it. Creationism can be a very persuasive position that seems to go hand in hand with many theistic positions and there is a well-oiled marketing strategy to make it do just that, including slick debates. But with regards to actual science and evidence (as opposed to some big words, qualifications in something and great orators), that can be tested or put to peers in the relevant fields, it does not in any way stack up.
Tell me what you think.